Playing against serpent

[Tealjackit 0]

It's been a long time since I've played, but I think I can mention a few unmentioned things here! The following bits of tips are from personal experience and may not apply to your games in the future. Oh yeah, and this is for playing against the serpent. OH yeah, and I only played on twisted fate where terrain doesn't really affect you too much.

Context of fighting the Serpent:

The serpent are going to usually do 2 things to start their game: Make swords, or make muskets. Crossbowmen aren't a popular option unless the serpent player is aiming to soup up their shots with the paralyzing shots.

Something Dragon players will notice:

Spearmen and Archers both suffer extra damage from muskets.

SO! when I am fighting a serpent player, I get chemists. Chemists can beat crossbowmen and muskets with relative ease, but the problem is swordsmen serve them up with their cutting damage. There is a way to resolve this problem!

To prevent your chemists from getting slaughtered by swordsmen, you build an alchemist hut, train one chemist...or two...i can't remember...and you build the stables. If you can get 4 chemists on 4 horses, then the trample will make the swordsmen a non-issue.

If the serpent rush you with swordsmen, then with maybe two peasants and even 1 horse you should be able to fend them off. If you don't have a horse, then just do your best with peasants and chemists. The problem with using peasants though, is that taking them off rice that early in the game really affects your resources. A decent serpent player will know when to run his swordsmen away and then he will simply be satisfied with a resource advantage. However, since this game's resources are infinite and easily collected, a resource advantage isn't that big of a deal. If the serpent player decides to stick a tower in your face, chemists won't have a problem taking it down. See, if you started with archers, you get alot more attack damage, but that tower is going to go up and stay up. Then you're screwed.

Now, considering the Serpent's options:

A serpent player can decide to put his swordsmen on horses. The serpent needs a tavern in order to build a stable...according to my memory. IF that's true, then that's quite bad. Swordsmen on horses are going to really serve up your peasants. And your chemists can't do much about that. Their damage simply isn't enough to ward off swordsmen on horses. So what is a dragon player to do?

Sacrifice 1 peasant. Around the time your alchemist hut is finished, send one peasant to the enemy base and look at what he's building. It's a big sacrifice because the early game peasants are vitaaal! However, if you know the enemy has a stables with swordsmen, then it is wiser to spend resources on building a defensive tower. Actually, now that I think about it, if you scout earlier and see that he's building swordsmen, just get spearmen, followed by an alchemist hut.

Obvoiusly I did not plan what I was saying very well. NEW INFORMATION- if you scout early with a peasant, then you can build in response to what the serpent is building. If he builds swords, then you build spears. If he builds Muskets, you build chemists.

If you build spears, follow with an alchemist hut. This is because kabuki can serve the muskets that the serpent player is likely to follow up with. Dragon warriors are popular because they look so powerful, but if the serpent player builds cannoneers, which they probably will, then your dragon warriors are going to get pounded.

[[busta you're typing an awful lot. What do you follow up the chemists against muskets with?]]

I would usually get a dojo and move to kabuki, and maybe geisha too. Kabuki, spearmen, few chemists, and some geisha are a decent midgame against the serpent. There are still alot of ways serpent can beat you up, but...yeah tough luck. Raiders with caltrops for instance can really cause disaster, but that's a different story altogether. My solution to raiders is to try to use chemists on horses (if they're alive still) to do the same thing.

[[Archers Ignored..what's this??]]

Archers are excellent against the other clan's, but I don't see their application against the serpent. They get served by both swordsmen and muskets. You get fire arrows, but you need an alchemist hut for that, and chemists could have served the purpose of razing earlier. powder keggers are great for shrapnel, but I would save them for later in the game.

[[so what about late game?]]

I rarely make it to late game against serpent. It's either they die or I do. I will only add samurais if the serpent player has no muskets. Otherwise I like to get some shrapnel.

[[Geisha? WHAt about those!]]

This really depends on how the game progresses. I usually add them after I get kabuki, or around the same time. This allows me to have a pretty decent force that won't immediately get served by a buncha muskets or swordsmen. Give at least 1 kabuki flash powder,the rest star powder...or..whatever it's called, and maybe 2

spearmen whirl. This will quickly subdue enemy swordsmen/ronin and stardust can cause the enemy range to retreat.

[[serpents always win]]

Of course, the serpent can just mass smoke bombs and paralyze all your units by spamming them. Even if you split up your groups, a serpent player using the same micro can just spread-spam his smokebombs. Then, you're screwed.

[[conclusion]]

Yeah

[Mana 3,867]

Good job! I think this site was worth my money! Its going great!

[{Dark}BerZerKer 0]

i usually just build everything not just 1 unit type.

and i rarly use battle gears

[Stagging_Dragon 0]

wow... you almost got all kinds of information i needed. I though I'm the only player that likes Dragon Clan a lot

[Mr Tumnus 1]

But what about dragon stable?

That's a very great advantage you have against other clans, you can build it right away after youve built a hut. Chemists on horses aren't best solution, they still have weak armour

What I do against Swordrush is building hut -> scouting and building with the other peasent Dojo (although I dont kow which units hes goin to make) and then makin stable immedatly and second dojo, this works also well against musketeers, but my problem is, that is too slow!

Against most of the players in BR thats fine, but there are freaks out there who attack with sword and musk and i have just finished my stable and then im screwed up cause my opponent has two soldiers i have one spearman and no horses and then my opponent just need to attack with musketeers and guard them with sword and Im down. all that helps is a tower, but ive won only some minutes...umm im desperate.

[Tealjackit 0]

But what about dragon stable?

That's a very great advantage you have against other clans, you can build it right away after youve built a hut. Chemists on horses aren't best solution, they still have weak armour

What I do against Swordrush is building hut -> scouting and building with the other peasent Dojo (although I dont kow which units hes goin to make) and then makin stable immedatly and second dojo, this works also well against musketeers, but my problem is, that is too slow!

Against most of the players in BR thats fine, but there are freaks out there who attack with sword and musk and i have just finished my stable and then im screwed up cause my opponent has two soldiers i have one spearman and no horses and then my opponent just need to attack with musketeers and guard them with sword and Im down. all that helps is a tower, but ive won only some minutes...umm im desperate.

2260[/snapback]

Well, if you scout and he's building swordsmen, a dojo is fine. What if he starts off with muskets though? If he sends 3 muskets then builds a tower in your base, spearmen aren't going to be able to stop the tower from building up. If he builds swords though, that's not so much a worry.

You should just have one peasant on water. In that way, you should be able to keep up with the serpent's pace in building units.

The reason I said chemists on horses is because the hourse counters their melee weakness. Spearmen on horses does make the spearmen better, but they still suffer the weakness against muskets. Muskets do big damage to horses and will generally avoid melee range. You won't be able to trample them.

Of course, I'm not an authority on dragon. I actually played Serpent with much more success than Dragon. I played dragon later on because no one else wanted to. Also, I don't like playing bad guys that much. Please realize that you've all been playing more than I have. The stuff I'm telling you is quite different than what the oldschool pros wrote. This is all me. Therefore it is full of flaws.

Oh yeah, if he has swordsmen on horses coming, it's probably best to get a tower. If you have spearmen, you'll want to only use a few at first and hide the others so that he'll waste his trample. If he manages two tramples on your spearmen, they will be quite screwed! If it's two on two though, that changes everything.

[Mr Tumnus 1]

Well my problem is:

I build hut, send one peasent to scout and one to build dojo the rest of peasents get rice. then i see my enemy building tavern and chemist hut. i wanna get stable, i send scout back, build stable with 2 peasents, get 2 for water the rest for rice to get second dojo and recruit spearman but my spearman isnt even finished i get attacked by a swordman and muskets so im overwhelmed and i dont have even a chance to get on horses.

The reason I said chemists on horses is because the hourse counters their melee weakness. Spearmen on horses does make the spearmen better, but they still suffer the weakness against muskets. Muskets do big damage to horses and will generally avoid melee range. You won't be able to trample them.

Umm but musketeers cant do the damage for you have horses and they cant run away. You keep them in melee and so you can take out one after one, they have armour but they are range so your opponent loses the whole army while you dont even lose one...thats the idea behind it

Of course, I'm not an authority on dragon. I actually played Serpent with much more success than Dragon. I played dragon later on because no one else wanted to. Also, I don't like playing bad guys that much. Please realize that you've all been playing more than I have. The stuff I'm telling you is quite different than what the oldschool pros wrote. This is all me. Therefore it is full of flaws.

Well, it doesn't depend on how long you play. It just depends on what you learn! I'd like to think about it with you and find solutions, because I can't think of one on my own..

[{Dark}WolfBite 2]

Teal jackit you have it all wrong; I played a lot of 1v1 versus serpent and there no way is chemists best against musketeers, I recommend archers/geisha and tower. People can counter the chemists easily with cannons and swords. Archers on the other hand have range, stamina, and upgrades that help afterwards in the game. Only way to counter them is to either abuse smoke, or make snipers; which archers can kill because of their long range upgrade,

[Jdeks 0]

Archers still have a shorter range than snipes, even with upgrades, and the snipes still blow them apart.

Ive had mounted chemists used against my sword/musks rushes, and tealjackets right; its a very effective counter. The chemist attack works OK on musks and swords, and trample adds the final touch. The best way to counter this counter however, is to scout you opponent, quickly dominate the map and kill his horse gatherers as you rush him with swords. It'll take some effort to kill the horses hes got already, so you need to have a very good troop chain set up and good micro, but once hes lost his horses, those chemists are gone.

[Tealjackit 0]

Teal jackit you have it all wrong; I played a lot of 1v1 versus serpent and there no way is chemists best against musketeers, I recommend archers/geisha and tower.  People can counter the chemists easily with cannons and swords.  Archers on the other hand have range, stamina, and upgrades that help afterwards in the game. Only way to counter them is to either abuse smoke, or make snipers; which archers can kill because of their long range upgrade,

2330[/snapback]

Jdeks provided me support on my claim, and he seems to experienge the game the same way I do, but in response to what you said:

If you look up the damage type chart, which I am guessing this community is aware of, Chemists have a resistance to the explosive damage of musketeers. Musketeers, however, are weak to the explosive damage of the chemists. When you say that muskets beat chemists, especially in the early parts of the game, I doubt it ...........are you playing bp3? That might explain the inconsistency of experience.

Furthermore, Archers are weak to explosive damage. You'll notice a yellow-orange explosion around them whenever muskets shoot them. They lose to muskets. Sniper scopes and cannoneers are concerned with a later part of the game, and I i'm focusing on the early game in this mass of text here.

[Mr Tumnus 1]

Umm in my personal expirience archers and chemists have quite similar defense against explosives, chemists dont get as much as archers when hit, but the difference isn't that big, I've only seen this yellow orange explosion when an archer got hit when he was hit with weakness bolt..

But its true, chemists deal far more damage than archers against musks and if it comes to lategame you can upgrade them to powderkegs...rawrorama

[Jdeks 0]

Archer defense to explosive is two grades less than that of chemist.(archer take 100%, chemist takes 50%)

Both chemist and archer take 100% damage from peircing.

Musks take 75% damage from peircing, and 100% from explosive.

So, to conclude, musks will beat archers, but chemists will beat musks (generally, and discluding scope).

As for powderkegs, they take 125% damage from explosive, 100% from peircing and 150% from cutting. So, musks and swordsmen generallly make for a cheap, fast and effective counter to powder kegs.

[{Dark}WolfBite 2]

lol, did you lose a lot of 1v1s? re-read my posts, chemists are so easy to counter.

eg, snipes, cannons, swords.

Experience pfff.

[{Dark}CoolGuy 1]

Chemists are only good in rush but not good as archer chemists have a lot of weekness so it not that great.

[Tealjackit 0]

lol, did you lose a lot of 1v1s?  re-read my posts, chemists are so easy to counter.

eg, snipes, cannons, swords.

Experience pfff.

2373[/snapback]

OKay, so cannons and snipes counter chemists. I'm not saying that you keep the chemists throughout the whole game. I clearly stated in my original post that you turn them into kabuki. If you're going to mention snipes and cannons, that's like 5 minutes later in the game, which introduces new units and changes everything. I adressed the issue of swords with horses.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I lose often in 1v1s. Not that it really matters.

[{Dark}WolfBite 2]

Well maybe thats why we have contradictory opinions, Pro-Serpent players can change their units and strategy in an instant. I know it is hard to believe, but the best way is to play someone with skill in the game.

[{Dark}CoolGuy 1]

Chemists are to weak. there defence is the worst.

[Tealjackit 0]

I think you have a serious comprehension issue. I am talking about the first 3-4 units you build. You just said something completely unrelated to the first few units you build in a game.

I...will not be arguing further, I wrote all that I wanted to write.

[{Dark}WolfBite 2]

Umm..no my reading comprehension is fine, you were bashing archers and stop denying it.

[Mr Tumnus 1]

Umm..no my reading comprehension is fine, you were bashing archers and stop denying it.

2417[/snapback]

Wolf you're the master you're always right! lets give wolf a w00t, everyone!

...

I think you have a serious comprehension issue.

you said it best.

I...will not be arguing further, I wrote all that I wanted to write.

Neither do I, but let's go on thinkin about it. If you want we can do the through pm..

I tried using your chemist strategy, but I guess it was too late, I first wanted to do spearmen on horses but then I had 2 horses when my stable was destroyed already. I built chemist hut then and could hold my opponent off through chattin so i had at least 3 chemists and spearmen but he had an overwehlming number of musekts so I lost..

I tried to muskrush once someone of MaGe (he was dragon) when I attacked he had archer recruiting buildin (dunno its name on english) and a tower. He built it very intelligent, I couldnt do anything without being crashed by the tower. Neithertheless I tried to take out some buildings but he repaired them and built in meanwhile chemists. Then I had no chance anymore.

That proofs two things: Chemists work against musks and I'm a noob.

[Jdeks 0]

I thinks tumnus has well highlighted what Tealjacket has been saying.

Chenists counter musks.

[{Dark}WolfBite 2]

Wolf you're the master you're always right! lets give wolf a w00t, everyone!

...

Your amount of sarcasm astounds me. Quit while your at it.

[Mr Tumnus 1]

Umm defending with dragon against rushing serpent is a serious problem, is really the only way to defeat this a tower? without a tower you're overwhelmed, your units have low defense against serpent units and serp rusher always outnumbers dragon defender...

[{Dark}WolfBite 2]

Yes, geisha help too. I like being dragon versus serpent. I don't really play 1v1's unless I am obligated so maybe I am wrong.

[Tealjackit 0]

I played a 3v3 recently. I've never seen the alchemist hut followed by the thieves guild right after.

Of course, that's not even possible if these kids didn't play on high resources. -.- I think sniper scope gives piercing damage though, so then there would be a problem for chemists in that scenario. The two guys I was playing with told me to build archer and geisha. I didn't want to argue so I did it. We still ended up winning, but barely. Both teams just massed muskets and then moved to 2nd tier range -.-.