Banned

[Conqueror 0]

SteamID: STEAM_0:1:5133372

In game name: Conqueror

Was playing on goldrush server about 4:45 central time. My team wins the round and then I get kicked and get, " You have been banned" message. Didn't even type a single thing in chat. I've played on Lotus servers before and have them on my favorites list, and was even invited to join Lotus steam group. I don't know who banned me, or for what reason. If somebody thinks I was hacking I love to see the demo video of me playing.

Thanks for reading, hope to play with you guys again.

Conqueror

[Mana 3,867]

SteamID: STEAM_0:1:5133372

In game name: Conqueror

Was playing on goldrush server about 4:45 central time. My team wins the round and then I get kicked and get, " You have been banned" message. Didn't even type a single thing in chat. I've played on Lotus servers before and have them on my favorites list, and was even invited to join Lotus steam group. I don't know who banned me, or for what reason. If somebody thinks I was hacking I love to see the demo video of me playing.

Thanks for reading, hope to play with you guys again.

Conqueror

Yes let's see if a demo shows up.

[EagleEye 20]

Here is the demo I took.

www.eeisi.com/conquerer.rar

To view it, load TF2 and in console type "playdemo conquerer".

When the demo is playing, hit shift-F2 to bring up the speed control. This is very good to use to detect a sniper who is using hax, because you can literally go frame by frame to see where he's aiming at the precise moment the trigger is pulled, and see where the shot actually lands.

One thing to note: In HL2 games, there are invisible "hit boxes" that can sometimes lag behind a player's visible rendered model. IN GENERAL, TF2 doesn't have a hit box lag problem like CS:S does, or not that I've noticed anyway. Most of the time, a miss is a miss, and a hit is a hit. If you're not shooting the visible head of the target, you're gonna miss the head's hitbox. That said, I find it highly unlikely that ANY of the BS kills I detail below are in any way caused by hit box lag.

My notes on the demo:

At around 14000 frames in, you should slow it down and watch 3 consecutive kills. He is in the right sniper nest, looking across to the top of the trench.

Slow it down way far and you will see 3 consecutive kills... the dot is not even on the target a few of these times, and he gets headshots... even if it's hit box lag, the dot is on the torso, so even if he was shooting at a lagging hit box, the shot would have registered on the torso.

2nd stage:

Frame 25300 to 25400... pyro is coming out from 1st cap point. First shot is lagging behind... could be hit box lag.

Second shot as pyro jumps in to trench... nowhere near, gets a body shot for the kill.

Near frame 30100, near end of map. Crosshair jerks noticeably to the head of a demo man near the cart.

3rd stage:

Near frame 40000, he has a few legit headshots... but you'll notice near the start of the map he seems to have toggled the aim bot off, and really REALLY sucks at getting any sort of hit at all. He toggles back on for a heavy kill, then after that... on the tracks, moving right to left... headshot on a guy you can't even see.

45900 to 46000... really bogus head shot on a pyro.

Just before 46500, dude's aiming at the body of a demo near the corner, up on a ledge... the shot hits ABOVE the dot, on the guy's head. I guess the demo was overhealed, because it wasn't a kill, but it WAS a headshot. No lagging hitboxes there.

Just before 46900... aiming at a wall to the left of a sniper's head... pulls trigger, gets head shot. It was a clear miss.

50500... has perfect aim on a heavy's head, but couldn't pull the trigger... this shows to me the LACK of skill he has as a sniper. The heavy backs up, but head is still exposed. Shaky and uncertain movements around the heavy's head, then BOOM, another headshot that should have hit nothing but dirt.

From there until 53500 or so, he has a series of shots where his crosshairs never get NEAR a head, he keeps shooting, and missing horribly, demonstrating his pure lack of skill. My guess is he toggled off, or he wasn't close enough for his aimbot to be triggered (From what I've read and seen, most aim hacks have buffers or thresholds so you still have to aim in the general area, so as to not draw too much attention or make it too obvious).

Either that or he toggled off for a bit, sucked hardcore for a few shots, got frustrated, and toggled back on.

Anyway... 53500... aiming to the left of a sniper's right shoulder, gets a headshot... crosshair never touched the sniper, and the sniper wasn't moving so there were no lagging hitboxes to blame.

57500 to 58150 or so (after an uber wears off)... lots of BS shots... including a BS body shot on the formerly uber medic, and 2 BS headshots on a soldier.

There are seriously 6 to 10 more BS shots he gets in the last minute or so of the game. One that's REALLY hilarious is at 66200 or so. An engie is coming out of spawn, going up the ramp. His shot is aiming near the engie's waist... it's a MISS, but you see the bullet hit the beam behind the engie right where the head WAS just 2 frames before. So the aimbot shot for the head, but MISSED!

Then, 66500... aim is actually on the boxes right in front of him, he shoots the head of a sniper (dot was low and right, and focused on something 3 feet in front of him), but he gets the headshot anyway...

That's not even all that I think I could have commented on. Seriously, there were so many...

A few comments on Conquerer himself as a player:

1) He contibuted almost NOTHING to his team's success. He only pushed a cart on 1st stage, up to 1st cap. He didn't really kill anyone worthwhile until the end (when he was killing people guarding the final cap on stage 3). He died a total of 3 times by my count (1 time in 1st stage, 0 in 2nd stage, and 2 times in 3rd).

2) He is nothing but a useless stat-junkie who loves to get high scores. Snipers are perfect for this because of the 1 point per headshot and 1 point per kill. So 2 points for each cheap-ass kill that does very little for your team.

3) His aim is HORRIBLE. When aiming on his own, he can hardly FIND a head much less stay on it or track in on it. His reflexes are horrible, his decision-making is a reflection of a slow mind, and if not for his hax, he would have had 2... maybe 3... total kills. Maybe he's just so used to his hax doing the work for him that he hasn't tried to refine his own play. *shrug*.

4) Just looking at how he plays in general... how he aims, how he moves... he's a noob. And yet... he had TWICE the score of the #2 person on his team due to his hax and the points granted for head shots (which is why hackers LOVE playing a sniper... relatively low danger of being killed + 2 points per headshot kill = high score for little effort).

Anyway... Dude's a hacker as far as I can tell.

Of course now will come his rebuttal where he will call me a noob, say I don't know what I'm talking about, and trash on my frame rate or something... anything to deflect the attention away from himself. You see, the best defense is to attack your accuser.

I know this because I've seen it far too often in CS:S... thankfully TF2 is relatively free of hackers.

[Conqueror 0]

Well this is the first time I've ever been banned from a server before. I drop by the server once in awhile. And this is the first time I've got to see a demo of my self playing.

First thing, I totally respect any opinions people may have of me, you too EagleEye. I've never cursed or put down fellow players of my team or opposing team as I just play the game for fun.

First thing I notice about the demo is why is everybody's movements so jerky? On my side everything is silky smooth game play at max settings. I'm not bashing your computer, EagleEye, but seeing the demo reminded me of playing TF2 on my old P4 computer. Which is why I built a new Duo Core computer 6 months ago, but I'm going off topic.

Anyway my ping during the recorded demo was about 30-35ms, and as anything in the 30's and under is a great ping. Combine that with 100+ fps on my side and I can understand why someone would think some of those head shots are BS. By just looking at that demo I too would call my self a hacker. lol But i don't hack, I play straight.

During the demo I miss a bunch of shots too just like any normal player would, I'm not perfect people. As any sniper will tell you from experience, if you hesitate while sniping your dead. Sometimes you can't get that perfect lined up charged power shot, so you just shoot and hope you hit your target. Sometimes your lucky and get a kill, others you just hit air.

Getting back to the demo, on my side there is no lag or frame jerkiness just smooth game play. But I would like to prove my self and invite anyone to spectate and record a new demo of me, if you would let me back on the server.

I really enjoy playing on Lotus servers since I have a very low ping on them, and hope I get to play with you guys again as some of the Lotus members put up a good challenge for me. I play just to have, but it does hurt my feelings being called a hacker.

Guess now my fate is left up to Mana now.

Thanks for the fun times

Conqueror

Just wanted to add this video to show that their is lag when it comes to hit boxes. What looks like a perfect head shot on my screen, will look like a miss on the demo due to lag.

[EagleEye 20]

Oh trust me, I know exactly how hit box lag works. Also, on my screen while recording, it was pretty smooth as well. The demo recording in HL2 really blows as far as I'm concerned.

Hit box lag can not explain your BS shots of people standing still (at least 5), or the shots where your crosshair jerks up or down to find the head, or where the shot hits nowhere near where your crosshair is or has been in the past few frames (and always towards the head)? Also, hit box lag explains lateral problems, but not up-down. Target is moving right to left, or left to right, you're aiming low (at the body)... shoot, and your crosshair jumps UP? That's not hit box lag, or demo lag... that's hacks.

Edited to add:

OH yeah, almost forgot... OF COURSE you missed a lot "just like normal people". Aim hacks aren't perfect, and as I said in my details above, they don't always trigger due to a minimum distance you must be from the target for them to do so. A hacker wouldn't want his crosshair jumping his shot more than 2 or 3 degrees of arc, or it would be far too obvious to detect him and ban him. Also, from what I know about hacks (and I admit, back in my CS 1.6 days, I downloaded a few to see how they worked... never used them on any server, just on my own private one with a friend), I know you can toggle things on and off with something as simple as a single key, or a shake of the mouse "left-right-left", or a toggle between primary-secondary-primary weapons (within a certain number of seconds). This is why you see a lot of the hackers in CS, running around rolling their mouse wheel to toggle between primary and secondary weapons... it kind of randomizes when their aim hacks are on, so as to make them harder to detect. Having aim hacks on 50% of the time sure beats having them on 0%, and it beats 100% as well... you're too obvious at that point.

Trust me sir, I know hackers. I have studied how they work, their methods of deception in forums like these (What, do you really think a hacker will ADMIT it? OF COURSE they'll deny it, say they love the server, have never been banned before from any server, and have never EVER been accused of hacking before... all things we can't know are true at all). I've also studied what their hacks can and cannot do, and know what to look for. I know all of their excuses from blaming the demo recorder's computer for laggy/jerky movements (which you did), to blaming hit boxes (which you did).

FYI, I have NEVER had a hit box problem in TF2... for some reason this mod keeps hit boxes fairly well in line with the model. In CS:S, there are times when the hit box and model are completely disconnected from each other (like the head hit box has a gap as wide as itself between itself and the actual model's head). In TF2, a head shot is almost 100% always a head shot.

[Conqueror 0]

I like to state again if I get unbanned anybody is welcome to spec me. Plus as a public member of -EGO-, and play a lot with EGO members you know their tough on hackers and exploiters, hell you can't curse on their server.

I've started a thread on their forum about this incident

http://www.edgegamers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66428

A lot of people know me there and they know I don't hack EVER! Also as added point from a fellow ego member pointed out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conquerer

First thing I notice about the demo is why is everybody's movements so jerky? On my side everything is silky smooth game play at max settings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoiDed

I'll answer one of your questions from the Lotus clan forums.

This is a byproduct of the demo itself, it doesn't record the game in 100% accuracy. So a player's location on the map, and the direction you're aiming is sometimes not completely accurate. This effect leads to the "he wasn't aiming at them, but it killed them" situation.

I really hope Mana that you see my side as a legit player.

Thank You,

Conqueror

[EagleEye 20]

Interesting drama you've started here and at that other forum...

Something I'd like to point out that you and many of your fanboys over there are missing is that for it to be hit box lag, you actually have to hit a lagging hit box. This means that to get a headshot, you have to shoot where a head used to be sometime in the last few hundred milliseconds.

So... target moving right to left... hit box dragging behind the head a bit due to lag... right? Following me so far?

You're aiming AT THE GUY'S WAIST... so if it was hit box lag, guess what... you would hit the guy, but not with a head shot.

I saw at least 5 to 7 different times when this happened in the demo. Aiming low or high, the guy isn't moving in ANY WAY vertically, and you get a head shot.

Your friend that's a network software engineer DOES know what he's talking about, but I'll guarantee you he didn't even watch the demo. He's absolutely right about how it all works. What I'm saying is that there is no way at all that hit box lag explains away many of your head shot kills.

Like the one on 3rd stage 3rd cap, down the street from the platform behind 2nd cap, to the sniper in the right attic around the corner... He's perfectly steady, you're perfectly steady. You are aiming at the wall to the left of the sniper's head, and down a bit. If the shot was not re-directed by a hack, please tell me why the bullet didn't harmlessly hit the wall?

Last kill before end of round... you're standing behind the boxes leading to the bunker at the last corner. Aiming at the boxes... the dot is big and blue and 3 feet in front of you. Target (another sniper) is perfectly still, and you're not aiming at his head at all. In my own experience, you pull the trigger aiming where you did, and you hit that stupid box... but you get the head shot. Explain that one to me.

Another one near last cap... demo going right to left. Your aim was actually on the bomb model, right at the gauge of the back of the bomb cart when you pulled the trigger. The shot's ray trace would have been blocked by the bomb's model even if the hit boxes were lagging behind the demo. Explain that one to me.

1st stage, 2nd cap... you get 3 consecutive kills... 2nd one is an engineer near the tracks. You're aiming at the level of his wrench when you pull the trigger, but you get a head shot. Since when does the hit box for the head lag DOWNWARDS when a target is moving right to left?

You simply can NOT use hit box lag, or demo lag, to explain this all away.

Listen... everyone gets BS shots once in a while. I have a friend that got 2 consecutive pipe bomb kills on people rocket jumping over his head. He's very good, plays in leagues, and was shocked as hell and giggling like a little girl over it. He took the recording and posted it to youtube (I'll have to ask him for the link again). But anyway, like I said, EVERYONE has had those rare cases happen when a random shot gets someone in a BS way.

You managed to get about 20 to 30 of them in a single offensive round.

[VoiDeD 0]

Your friend that's a network software engineer DOES know what he's talking about, but I'll guarantee you he didn't even watch the demo. He's absolutely right about how it all works. What I'm saying is that there is no way at all that hit box lag explains away many of your head shot kills.

Hello EagleEye, I figured I'd register on this forum so I can post my opinions directly. I apologize in advance if only people related to the ban should post, but I believe this ban is over a simple mistake.

I actually have viewed the demo, and I've also noticed how in some shots Conqueror is aiming nowhere near the target, but he still gets shots that can't be explained. But there are no hacks in existence that have this kind of behavior.

If he was aimbotting, his aim should just be over the target in the first place, and not aimed away from it. If it was nospread, his shot should completely miss the target since he's aiming at the target.

I've seen this type of "BS" shot in many demos and while spectating many players, I'm agree that the hitboxes are very accurate in TF2, and indeed they are. But what's happening here is just the inaccuracy of what was recorded while spectating Conqueror. On Conqueror's screen, his aim is actually right on target, but on yours it looks like he missed completely. The reason for this is that the angle of the player's view is stored inaccurately when spectating and viewing demos. And as I said in one of my posts on the EdgeGamers forum, networking has alot to do with this inaccuracy.

If you have any questions regarding this I'd be happy to try to answer. My reasons for going extremely out of my way for a pub of our servers (who is now a member) is that I get personally upset when a fellow sniper gets banned for a small mistake.

Best regards,

VoiDeD

[EagleEye 20]

Voided:

I think what you're failing to recognize is that I was watching this all live as it happened, many people saw it as well, prompting me to record the demo in the first place, and prompting us to summon an admin to spec him as well. Mana joined during the 3rd stage and evidently saw enough LIVE that she thought he should be temp banned. The Demo is merely supporting evidence to back up what we all saw while watching him live.

So no, I don't think the whole "it's a demo and can't be trusted" excuse will fly either.

As I was watching it live, I remember a lot of the shots that I thought were BS... and the demo backed up my suspicions on all of them.

[VoiDeD 0]

Voided:

I think what you're failing to recognize is that I was watching this all live as it happened, many people saw it as well, prompting me to record the demo in the first place, and prompting us to summon an admin to spec him as well.

What you spectate is also as inaccurate as what you record. I mentioned that in my post, my apology if I confused you.

The reason for this is that the angle of the player's view is stored inaccurately when spectating and viewing demos. And as I said in one of my posts on the EdgeGamers forum, networking has alot to do with this inaccuracy.

You can test this by spectating a sniper, and having him aim side to side. You'll notice that the snipers zoomed in aim will jump a little bit while moving, and that's the inaccuracy I'm speaking of. During moments of high network throughput, such as lots of usercommands coming in, and generally lots of action going on in the server, this little "jump" can become much larger.

[EagleEye 20]

What you spectate is also as inaccurate as what you record. I mentioned that in my post, my apology if I confused you.

You can test this by spectating a sniper, and having him aim side to side. You'll notice that the snipers zoomed in aim will jump a little bit while moving, and that's the inaccuracy I'm speaking of. During moments of high network throughput, such as lots of usercommands coming in, and generally lots of action going on in the server, this little "jump" can become much larger.

So basically what you're saying is that there is no proof, can never be any proof, and thus, there are no hackers ever.

Okay, maybe that's a bit of hyperbole, but seriously... if everything can be explained away by these excuses, there is absolutely zero recourse honest players have against hackers that aren't bloody obvious (like speed hackers or people who get headshots by instantly turning 45 degrees when they pull the trigger)...

At this point it becomes a question of which is more likely? That all of these network problems and demo sync problems actually HAPPENED, or that this guy is just 100% pure BS?

One or two questionable shots I can excuse... one or two lucky breaks I can understand... but you're asking me to believe that this guy is not only a better sniper than most I've seen, but that he's also the unluckiest bastard in terms of having proof against him.

You're stretching the limits of credibility here.

(FYI: I'm also a programmer who has done network programming... not on the lower layers of things, but I do understand latency.)

[VoiDeD 0]

You're stretching the limits of credibility here.

And I understand and respect your opinions entirely. But if you truly believe that he's hacking, then there's nothing I can say or do that will change your mind. As I said before though, there is no type of hack currently in existence that can make shots like the kind displayed in the demo.

I'd like to just note that if I ever played on a lotus server, I'm fairly certain that given evidence like this in my case as well, I would probably be banned. My favorite class along with Conqueror is sniper, and I play it very well. So I would be very disappointed if I was banned for simply playing the game well.

I must truly say that if you believe he's hacking then I have failed in the attempt to prove innocence and there's nothing left for me to say.

[EagleEye 20]

And I understand and respect your opinions entirely. But if you truly believe that he's hacking, then there's nothing I can say or do that will change your mind. As I said before though, there is no type of hack currently in existence that can make shots like the kind displayed in the demo.

I'd like to just note that if I ever played on a lotus server, I'm fairly certain that given evidence like this in my case as well, I would probably be banned. My favorite class along with Conqueror is sniper, and I play it very well. So I would be very disappointed if I was banned for simply playing the game well.

I must truly say that if you believe he's hacking then I have failed in the attempt to prove innocence and there's nothing left for me to say.

Hey, I'm just a regular on their servers... not an admin or a member... my opinion doesn't really count for anything. I just find the whole discussion interesting, and I thank you (and Conquerer) for being civil about it.

He's still a hacker though...

[Nket 16]

I watched the demo and I cannot even believe you guys think he is hacking, he clearly is not hacking. His movement is shaky from what I believe to be a gaming mouse with the sensitivity high, he did not shoot invis spies and i never saw his cross hair lock on to a head hitbox and i did not see him scoping out stuff as you would if you are using a Wallhack, sorry for the Ban conqueror I hope to see you on lotus servers again soon, the ban should be lifted