iso 0 #1 Posted July 12, 2009 Posted on Saturday July 11th, 11:05 PM By Josh(STEAM_0:0:3254127) *Banned* "Watching the demo, every shot he fires, hits. It doesn't always kill but it always hits." Hello Mana, Please take time to watch the accusing demo of 4:17 minutes (17158 frames) posted on this link by Furkle(STEAM_0:0:3770155) or mine If you analyze the posted video frame by frame (you can fix the slow motion speed @~15%), you will get the following results: Each shot or miss is associated with its linked screenshot(51 shots, click on the tick#) you can download at your convenience tick# shot miss hs kill assist n/a comment 01366 1 0 0 0 0 0 01647 0 1 0 0 0 0 02120 1 0 0 0 0 0 02510 0 1 0 0 0 0 03449 1 0 0 0 0 0 03670 0 1 0 0 0 0 03808 1 0 0 0 1 0 03994 0 1 0 0 0 0 04236 0 1 0 0 0 0 04454 1 0 0 0 0 0 05276 1 0 0 0 0 0 05727 0 1 0 0 0 0 05872 1 0 0 0 0 0 05993 0 1 0 0 0 0 06128 1 0 0 0 0 0 06321 0 1 0 0 0 0 06544 1 0 1 0 0 0 06708 1 0 0 0 0 0 07659 0 1 0 0 0 0 07812 0 1 0 0 0 0 08357 1 0 1 0 0 0 08500 0 1 0 0 0 0 08720 1 0 0 0 0 0 09404 1 0 1 0 0 0 09968 0 0 0 0 0 1 miss (scout cola) 10111 0 1 0 0 0 0 10508 1 0 1 0 0 0 10628 1 0 1 0 0 0 10787 1 0 0 0 0 0 10907 0 1 0 0 0 0 11569 0 1 0 0 0 0 11701 0 1 0 0 0 0 11865 1 0 0 0 0 0 12077 0 1 0 0 0 0 12348 1 0 1 0 0 0 12767 0 1 0 0 0 0 12875 0 0 0 0 0 1 shot (sniper kukri) 13229 0 1 0 0 0 0 13360 0 1 0 0 0 0 13510 0 1 0 0 0 0 13656 0 1 0 0 0 0 14180 1 0 0 1 0 0 14391 1 0 0 0 0 0 14646 1 0 0 0 1 0 16066 1 0 0 0 0 0 16196 1 0 0 0 0 0 16293 0 1 0 0 0 0 16595 0 1 0 0 0 0 17000 0 1 0 0 0 0 end of demo 17001 0 1 0 0 0 0 end of demo 17002 0 1 0 0 0 0 end of demo Total: shot+miss 49 shot 23 (47%) miss 26 (53%) hs 6 (12%) kill 1 assist 2 As you can clearly see the results are: 53% miss and 47% shot, including 12% headshot, what an incredible successful hax ! Posted on Saturday July 11th, 11:05 PM By Josh(STEAM_0:0:3254127) *Banned* "Watching the demo, every shot he fires, hits. It doesn't always kill but it always hits." The objective analysis of this demo shows us a misinterpretation of the guy who is supposed to handle the bans Finally the accusing video is just another proof of human factor failure and each ban should be supervised by independent third party and more than one guy Congratulation to all who successfully make me feel bad today for playing good and being a difficult challenger And keep in mind this experience could happen to you at anytime, the stronger you are, the more haters you get. I really enjoy(*) for several months the lotus gaming network and hope that the story will not stop like this. (*): even if the server is recurrently lagging or loosing its steam connection after 2 flawlessly days Name Steam ID isidorelive STEAM_0:1:4560987 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wolfey 0 #2 Posted July 12, 2009 Just watched the demo out of curiosity, what is your ping? You are def not aim botting. But... If the ping below 150 then I would suspect you could be either using packet blocking or somehow messing with the rates, most of the shots that hit seems to hit are way behind where the character are. Meaning to you the other characters should be rubberbanding, which could possibly give you an advantage thereby making other people think you are aim botting. I am not sure if that is allowed though. Either way, independent 3rd body for banning? this is a game server, not the court of justice man , if you are banned its not like you are banned from all servers, plenty of tf2 servers out there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tricksy 0 #3 Posted July 12, 2009 Just watched the demo out of curiosity, what is your ping? You are def not aim botting. But... If the ping below 150 then I would suspect you could be either using packet blocking or somehow messing with the rates, most of the shots that hit seems to hit are way behind where the character are. Meaning to you the other characters should be rubberbanding, which could possibly give you an advantage thereby making other people think you are aim botting. I am not sure if that is allowed though. Either way, independent 3rd body for banning? this is a game server, not the court of justice man , if you are banned its not like you are banned from all servers, plenty of tf2 servers out there. That was the request thread that got him banned. There's some talk in there about changing the client through the command console and something called 'rate hax'. It's mostly beyond me but it sounds like what you were talking about. I personally dislike the idea that a person can have 'optimized' his game with the express purpose of having an edge on other people. At least in a way described there(unlike changing the graphics settings for instance). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wolfey 0 #4 Posted July 12, 2009 That was the request thread that got him banned. There's some talk in there about changing the client through the command console and something called 'rate hax'. It's mostly beyond me but it sounds like what you were talking about. I personally dislike the idea that a person can have 'optimized' his game with the express purpose of having an edge on other people. At least in a way described there(unlike changing the graphics settings for instance). Thanks for the link, now I understand, I always thought the rates are automaticlly set by the server if there was a limit in place. Very interesting indeed, and clever exploitation of the engine. Basiclly in a nutshell He made his client expecting a lot information from the server. Server can't provide that amount of information at that speed. Because his client doesn't get the required amount of information, it makes everyone else on his computer seem laggy. (If you play against a laggy player on a server you will notice they pauses a lot and easier to hit) He shoots someone apparently standing still (On his screen), his client tells the server he hit someone. Server checks his ping and packet rate, he doesn't seem to be lagging, so hit is registered. The hit appears to someone with a normal client to be behind the actual avatar Although unfair, this appears to be totally within the mechanics of the TF2 engine and not a external hack. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iso 0 #5 Posted July 12, 2009 Posted 05 July 2009 - 11:09 PM by iso "rate hax" like "script hax" is officially supported by Steam through the console mode(~) and especially on the Lotusclan servers as no rate limits have been set by the Admin Posted 12 July 2009, 07:09 PM, by Mana We have limits: sv_maxrate 60000 sv_minrate 10000 sv_maxupdaterate 67 sv_minupdaterate 30 sv_maxcmdrate 67 sv_mincmdrate 30 sv_client_predict 1 sv_client_interpolate 1 To the Admin, As you have not set some narrow restrictions on the rates, gamers can "play" with them on your network from the scale of 30 to 67 Gamers will today and in the future continue to be suspected of "rate hax" on the lotus servers and it seems to be unfair for most of the players My suggestion: why don't you set the rates to the following configuration as some sysadmin already do, where all gamers are forced to play with exactly the same rates sv_maxrate=sv_minrate sv_maxupdaterate=sv_minupdaterate sv_maxcmdrate=sv_mincmdrate Note that only a few powerful machines can handle the constant 67 ticks which has been fixed on some other gaming server Posted 12 July 2009, 08:25 PM by Wolfey Just watched the demo out of curiosity, what is your ping? if you are banned its not like you are banned from all servers, plenty of tf2 servers out there. ~30ms ping on UK servers ~120ms ping on East Coast servers (the demo has been taken from this location) There are only a few servers where awesome admins have set "no instant respawn" or "no kamikaze nub here" (and who also restart the server "manually" when asked for the most enjoyable gaming experience) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Josh 18 #6 Posted July 12, 2009 would you like to explain why you are hitting people when your crosshair isn't on the person? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iso 0 #7 Posted July 13, 2009 would you like to explain why you are hitting people when your crosshair isn't on the person? Well, as you are the manager of the ban requests on the lotusclan servers, you should have a minimum of basic skill knowledge of what you have to deal with: From The Valve developer community / Source Multiplayer Networking "If you follow a player in "First-Person" as a spectator in a game or SourceTV, you don't exactly see what the player sees" Spectators see the game world without lag compensation From The Valve developer community / Source Multiplayer Networking Multiplayer hit detection is not pixel perfect and has known precision limitations based on the tickrate and the speed of moving objects. Increasing the tickrate does improve the precision of hit detection, but also requires more CPU, memory, and bandwidth capacity for server and clients From The Valve developer community / Source Multiplayer Networking Low latency is a significant advantage when playing a multiplayer online game. Techniques like prediction and lag compensation try to minimize that advantage and allow a fair game for players with slower connections. Tweaking networking setting can help to gain a better experience if the necessary bandwidth and CPU power is available. We recommend keeping the default settings, since improper changes may cause more negative side effects than actual benefits PS: again keep in mind my ~120ms ping on the East Coast server Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miyari 33 #8 Posted July 13, 2009 Instead of insulting an admin and arguing with Lotus members, why don't you just find some other 2fort server to troll with your wiki-paste bullshit excuses and get over it. There's countless 24/7 2fort servers out there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Josh 18 #9 Posted July 14, 2009 on his defense, he has put in 340 hours logged into stats. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miyari 33 #10 Posted July 14, 2009 And in my defense I don't care if he's cheating or not anymore I'll be a pissant about him because he sent me a rude private message. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iso 0 #11 Posted July 14, 2009 on his defense, he has put in 340 hours logged into stats. Thank you Josh¹ for defending my case now and I would like to add a precision: The Lotusclan psychostats system on http://stats.lotusclan.com/tf2/player.php?id=426318 is screwed up (as all the sessions are not recorded) and as Mana could confirm you, the launch of this service will be officially announced by Mana when it's done At this time, my gameplay history is of 711.2 hours on LotusClan.com | 24/7 2Fort | United Kingdom (rank 1) and of 84.92 hours on LotusClan.com | 24/7 2fort | East Coast (rank 13) So in total approximately 800 hours only on the lotus network Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squirrel 1 #12 Posted July 18, 2009 Most of the time when u shoot at a person and someone specates u.. it won't always look like ur crosshair is on that person and iso i know personally is not messing with his rates at all because i've sniped against him before and we have killed each other a fair amount of times. Furkle the person who is the guy who asked for the request to ban iso is part of a clique of kids... on the 24/7 east coast 2fort server.They usually will scream at u and tell you how there better then you and what not.. im sure everyone has seen those cocky people but when iso comes along and owns them they flip.This clique includes echo and aminous who convinced furkle to report iso.. there is a ton of drama is that server and they'll do anything to make sure they stay the best in that server though.. i really think they just reported him because they rage alot about dieing and its funny when you kill them alot. Just pop in and own them and you'll see for yourself Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tricksy 0 #13 Posted July 18, 2009 and iso i know personally is not messing with his rates at all You're just highlighting that you're just blindly defending Isi here. If this were true his first reply would have been a denial of doing it instead of defending 'rate hax' as being 'allowed'. And in his own words: "I will only say my rates are so high that I need to contact regularly the Admin of the Lotusclan server since I play on the Lotusclan network to ask for a restart of the server when it becomes to laggy" Yeah he seems fond of the PM system: "Hello If you are just a bit curious, accept even temporarily my steam friends invitation to be able to see my stats and my account history. Maybe you will change your mind after this. I give you a last chance to make your crappy gaming life more acceptable " I could care less about you and your stats. I play the game to have some fun and I do that even if I get killed time and time again. I certainly won't get pleasure from tweaking my gaming system to a point where I have an artificial edge over other players and I certainly don't care about looking at stats pages. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iso 0 #14 Posted July 20, 2009 I certainly won't get pleasure from tweaking my gaming system to a point where I have an artificial edge over other players and I certainly don't care about looking at stats pages. It was only to show you my 700 hours of training with sniper class. I don't want you to admire my stats but only see the time I spent on this game, network tweaking or not, which should explain my skills PS: publishing a Private Message on a Public forum is unfair and hopeless but this is not a surprise coming from your side tricksy ( STEAM_0:1:11861770 ) PS2: once again, if you continue to think that network tweaking is a hax and this "makes the truth more acceptable" it's fine with me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Henry Spencer 117 #15 Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) ITT: bitch bitch whine whine bold bold Edited July 20, 2009 by Henry Spencer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tricksy 0 #16 Posted July 21, 2009 It was only to show you my 700 hours of training with sniper class. I don't want you to admire my stats but only see the time I spent on this game, network tweaking or not, which should explain my skills PS: publishing a Private Message on a Public forum is unfair and hopeless but this is not a surprise coming from your side tricksy ( STEAM_0:1:11861770 ) PS2: once again, if you continue to think that network tweaking is a hax and this "makes the truth more acceptable" it's fine with me If you'd actually *read* my posts you'd know I already acknowledged that you had "skills" and that I already know how long you played the game. "but this is not a surprise coming from your side tricksy ( STEAM_0:1:11861770 )" And this part just seems sad. What's this supposed to be, another insult? You seem to be under the impression that I care if I die to you with your "make the truth more acceptable". Clearly you missed my explanation above. I'm over 30. I'm well aware there are better players than me, and if I let that ruin my gameplay I might as well stop the genre all together. I really don't care that other people are better, I just do my best to stop them in the best way that I can, and I enjoy doing it whether that succeeds or not. Apparently for you if you're "owning" other people that means something since you seem to think it means something to them when you do. I'd suggest focusing a little less on your stats like you obviously seem to have done considering your 340 hours on the stat page. I just play to have fun, win or lose, live or die. And I *certainly* won't give myself artificial advantages over other players and afterwards brag about "skill". Yeah, you're probably better than a lot of players on the server, but if part of that is due to adjusting your rates and whatnot, that makes it entirely meaningless. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squirrel 1 #17 Posted July 21, 2009 what is pretty much the deal i see, is a group of kids that thing there the 2fort bad ass's come along and get owned be iso and then report him. Honestly if he really is twinking the system because the server lets him why not do it? the part of the game is to get a advantage over ur oppoent 2 kill him is it not? EXAMPLE: A spy behind a Sniper.....Snipers Counter-Offense jarate on spy before striking in his back, or the razor back which messes up the back stab. the whole game is based on advantages like on the 2fort server u notice the red side of battlements has a shadow in it and the blue side does not so u can get more of a advantage by going into the shadow. I personally have seen iso snipe and play he is a good and fair player and if he gets banned for something the server let him do to kill his enemy... then why not just fix it.. its there! why not use it. its just like saying a engineer can't use his sentry gun and then have a dispenser behind him so he can repair his sentry gun whenever there is a uber trying to destroy his stuff. Tricksy saying that useing artificial advantages over other players and afterwards brag about the skill.... Honestly that is skill to know u got those advantages and if the other people complain about it then they should do it 2 only way to fix it is to fix the server. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tricksy 0 #18 Posted July 21, 2009 what is pretty much the deal i see, is a group of kids that thing there the 2fort bad ass's come along and get owned be iso and then report him. Honestly if he really is twinking the system because the server lets him why not do it? the part of the game is to get a advantage over ur oppoent 2 kill him is it not? EXAMPLE: A spy behind a Sniper.....Snipers Counter-Offense jarate on spy before striking in his back, or the razor back which messes up the back stab. the whole game is based on advantages like on the 2fort server u notice the red side of battlements has a shadow in it and the blue side does not so u can get more of a advantage by going into the shadow. I personally have seen iso snipe and play he is a good and fair player and if he gets banned for something the server let him do to kill his enemy... then why not just fix it.. its there! why not use it. its just like saying a engineer can't use his sentry gun and then have a dispenser behind him so he can repair his sentry gun whenever there is a uber trying to destroy his stuff. Tricksy saying that useing artificial advantages over other players and afterwards brag about the skill.... Honestly that is skill to know u got those advantages and if the other people complain about it then they should do it 2 only way to fix it is to fix the server. Clearly we simply disagree. I don't feel any of your *ingame* examples bear any resemblance to tweaking a game on the outside. I don't play games to dig around forums or learn about game coding to find out I won't be on an equal playing field unless I change my game in several ways to xxxxxx. I certainly won't recommend people for doing it or call it "skill". You also highlight the "advantage" of a different class over another, but arguably the most played class by Isi on the server is sniper. And the rate hax discussed here is about giving you a slight advantage over your opponent on getting a slight headstart on them. Sniper is just that. Sniper against sniper and every split second counts. In that sense what he did gave him a major advantage over other snipers, and clearly he took full advantage of that with all his time played on that class. Also, we're *just* talking about 'rate hax' here since that's the only thing I've seen mentioned (and isi basically admitted to). That doesn't mean that was the only thing he did. I don't know why he got banned, that's Josh's decision. It may not have just been the rate thing. I agree on the fact that if it was just the rate thing, and he would abide by the settings mana listed, then that would be fine for me. Does that mean I don't think it's sad that he spends so much time on stats pages when he full well knows he had an artificial advantage over probably 90%+ of the players most of the time? I still do. But that's beyond the point. He can play any way he likes for all I care but for me I do appreciate it when the people I play *against* (err and with) are at least not artificially "fooling the server" into giving them an advantage. That's just sad in my opinion and unfair against the other people who think they're dealing with someone playing on the same basis. I don't care whether or not Isi comes back. If it's decided he can come back, that's fine with me too, I like having a good opponent, and I do think he's a good player(even though his attitude sucks in my opinion but that's another matter alltogether ^^) although he was switching to the winning team a bit too often in the last few weeks in my opinion but hey, again that's his choice. What I do however hope/expect is that he plays fairly, without artificial advantages that go to such lengths, and without hacks of any kind (not saying he does/did here). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squirrel 1 #19 Posted July 21, 2009 this game is all about out smarting the other players to get a kill, and he did just that if they want to complain about it do something about it and out smart him its that simple to outsmart people like that it is considered skill Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tricksy 0 #20 Posted July 22, 2009 this game is all about out smarting the other players to get a kill, and he did just that if they want to complain about it do something about it and out smart him its that simple to outsmart people like that it is considered skill Yes yes, no need to highlight yet again that you can't grasp what I'm talking about. Sheesh. Seriously. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squirrel 1 #21 Posted July 22, 2009 that's the thing u can't grasp what im trying to put into ur thick skull. Sheesh. Seriously Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mana 3,867 #22 Posted September 9, 2009 Thread closed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
