Proposed Gunslinger Restriction

[causee 2]

Hello all,

I'd just like to take the time to propose a possible item restriction feature, aimed toward that of the gunslinger on Koth Harvest servers. Now I'm sure people are torn on this issue, but let me explain calmly why the gunslinger may actually be worth banning altogether on Harvest 24/7 servers.

First off lets talk about the range of a mini sentry. The range is the same as that of an actual sentry gun which typically isn't a problem on any map, except for Harvest. Since the range of any sentry gun is about I'd say approximately 1/5th of the map, it really zones most of the map off, especially if placed in choke areas, or near spawns. This is also not taking the wrangler into consideration which takes away the range factor, but the problem is not the wrangler. The range is stupid for a small map like that, and really voids out any movement of a team. Yes, that is what sentry guns do, but it seems a tad ridiculous that the sentry just zones outrageously well on Harvest, because of the smaller size. By the time you realize you're in range of one, 20+ health is gone.

Secondly, the spam-ability of the sentries itself actually may be the biggest problem on a map like this, combined slightly with its range. Harvest has an OVER abundance of metal/ammo packs across the map which really put more gasoline on the fire here. The engineer can just pop it down anywhere and move on without worrying about metal or placements because of the metal packs, and the versatility the gun has as far as range and power. It doesn't matter if the gun goes down, the engi can pretty much always have 200 metal on hand to dispense another one. There's no end to them, and there's no way to gimp the engi to get by that because of the abundance of metal. Also, since the mini sentry deploys at FULL health compared to a normal sentry gun, it makes the spam of them even more of a broken mess, because if you catch an engi with his pants down just placing a normal sentry, you can easily stop it because of the deploy time and health of the sentry going up. With minis, both of these factors are taken out as they go up at full health, and require little building time or building help.

Lastly, you could say "why not just kill the sentry with x weapon?". Yes, you can, but as I just explained above, it doesn't do much when a brand new sentry goes up seconds later. You could kill the engineer, but numerous factors come into play here such as him sitting within range of his gun, and your pre-occupied attention toward the sentry gun because it's most likely shooting at you or someone else on your team.

All these situations are then exponentially worse if there is more then one mini sentry engineer on the team, placing these guns down. It really has become something of a bother to the play-ability of the map, and most players would probably agree with that fact. Players who solely use sentry guns would not, because that would be the only way they win on the map. I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but being able to dispense a gun that shoots for you, with 1/5th of the map, for no cost and you being able to run around and shotgun things like a slow scout is really really broken.

Let me tackle some points that are usually used against this:

1: Valve put it in the game for a reason.

-While yes, Valve put it in the game for a reason, they would never and HAVE never balanced an item just because it is broken on one map. They look at balance as a whole, and because it works on the other maps, it is left alone on this map. The gunslinger is actually a terrible choice on other maps, so for them to nerf it would be impractical.

2: Just kill them.

-As I explained in earlier paragraphs, the spam-ability and zoning of the guns usually makes killing the gun a huge bother and really not worth the effort because a new one pops right up after. Things like the huntsman and the direct hit help, but most of the time people are not using them, and lets be honest, this is a pub and most players don't exactly have a very good game sense.

3: But this would make engi worthless on Harvest.

-Not at all. You have your big boy sentries you can build which are more powerful and shoot faster. I personally knew a guy who had all these spots for sentries on the map where he would build up level 3s and wreak havoc on the other team. It allows you to use your brain and think about where and when to build up a sentry, instead of just pressing a few buttons, and popping the mini down somewhere. It promotes care for the sentry, and consequence for losing your sentry, which the mini sentry does not provide.

4: You're just mad you can't win against minis.

-No? I can spam minis just as well, but I know how awful the experience is going up against one and how broken it is on this map particularly. I'm proposing this based on being on both sides of the fence, and forming my opinion based around it.

I'm not saying ban engineer, or to ban the sentries. Just the mini sentry gun itself needs to be taken out because it just provides awful playing experiences towards that of the other team. I once ran a server with a mini sentry blocking config, and most comments based on the decision were positive, that the sentries were disabled. If it comes down to it, I can provide you with the sourcemod plugin that I used to accomplish this.

Would like this looked at with some serious consideration, and can provide a rebuttal to any concerns or questions your have.

[- Mike - 2,728]

Everyone knows the mini is OP.

[Ruby 9,039]

I admin LotusClan 24/7 Harvest (x24) France, and having spent over 100 hours there, I can tell you this:

* It takes one sticky to destroy a minisentry.

* It takes one direct hit rocket to destroy a minisentry.

* It takes one Huntsman shot to destroy a minisentry.

* It takes one charged sniper rifle shot to destroy a minisentry.

* It takes two regular rockets - from ANY distance - to destroy a minisentry, provided it's not damaged.

Harvest is a very open map, and while minisentries ARE a problem sometimes, the problem usually surfaces in the combination with unbalanced teams. A good team will counter a minisentry pretty effectively, while a minisentry can pretty much wreck an unexperienced team. In that case, just votescramble and the problem will be gone.

In the case that there is a person really annoying with his minis and seems to ruin the game for everyone, you can usually votekick him.

While I completely understand your pain, we can't simply ban a weapon since it doesn't exactly break the map, and we'd get delisted from quickplay. There's a lot of ways to counter a minisentry and IMO, regular sentries are a far bigger problem.

[causee 2]

I admin LotusClan 24/7 Harvest (x24) France, and having spent over 100 hours there, I can tell you this:

* It takes one sticky to destroy a minisentry.

* It takes one direct hit rocket to destroy a minisentry.

* It takes one Huntsman shot to destroy a minisentry.

* It takes one charged sniper rifle shot to destroy a minisentry.

* It takes two regular rockets - from ANY distance - to destroy a minisentry, provided it's not damaged.

Harvest is a very open map, and while minisentries ARE a problem sometimes, the problem usually surfaces in the combination with unbalanced teams. A good team will counter a minisentry pretty effectively, while a minisentry can pretty much wreck an unexperienced team. In that case, just votescramble and the problem will be gone.

In the case that there is a person really annoying with his minis and seems to ruin the game for everyone, you can usually votekick him.

While I completely understand your pain, we can't simply ban a weapon since it doesn't exactly break the map, and we'd get delisted from quickplay. There's a lot of ways to counter a minisentry and IMO, regular sentries are a far bigger problem.

You list the things that can destroy a sentry yes, but what you missed is the fact there is no gratification for destroying them. They can just be rebuilt as easily as they are destroyed. Destroying a level 3 or any other kind of sentry has a window of lenience because the engi has to rebuild it up, and as I mentioned since they don't go up at full health and need to be cared for while they are built, unlike mini sentries, there is no grace period. In that time you can easily get the engi while he's fumbling to put up another regular sentry.

Yes, a good team can counter anything, but we're talking from a perspective of balance. Say the teams are completely balanced (hypothetically), then give one team a mini sentry. Now the team with the minis will have the advantage compared to the team that doesn't, whereas if you give them a regular sentry, its not nearly as balance breaking, since the sentry needs to be built up to become its full potential. You have a period of time you can easily catch the engi off guard. And even if a level 3 is built up, you can be assured that when you destroy it, another one won't be up for a period of time, whereas a mini goes up right away after it is destroyed.

Being that you're admin, that is an AWFUL way to treat players if you're just going to votekick them just because you don't like what they're doing. You cannot justify votekicking someone for NOT breaking any rules. I can't believe you would suggest something so absurd.

And no. I ran a server and have done research into quickplay. Not once did I ever come across "blocking a weapon will delist the server from quickplay". Blocking a weapon is a server side plugin using sourcemod that does not remove the server from quickplay. I don't know where you got that idea, but that is completely untrue. Here's the OFFICIAL valve dev post on the subject of Quickplay. Please read it: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=2825-AFGJ-3513 . Blocking a weapon does not vary any of the Cvar tags related to friendlyfire, respawntimes, nocrits, norespawntimes, nodmgspread, highlander, or noquickplay. It simply denies a weapon from loading.

[Orbit - dBs 179]

You list the things that can destroy a sentry yes, but what you missed is the fact there is no gratification for destroying them. They can just be rebuilt as easily as they are destroyed. Destroying a level 3 or any other kind of sentry has a window of lenience because the engi has to rebuild it up, and as I mentioned since they don't go up at full health and need to be cared for while they are built, unlike mini sentries, there is no grace period. In that time you can easily get the engi while he's fumbling to put up another regular sentry.

Yes, a good team can counter anything, but we're talking from a perspective of balance. Say the teams are completely balanced (hypothetically), then give one team a mini sentry. Now the team with the minis will have the advantage compared to the team that doesn't, whereas if you give them a regular sentry, its not nearly as balance breaking, since the sentry needs to be built up to become its full potential. You have a period of time you can easily catch the engi off guard. And even if a level 3 is built up, you can be assured that when you destroy it, another one won't be up for a period of time, whereas a mini goes up right away after it is destroyed.

Being that you're admin, that is an AWFUL way to treat players if you're just going to votekick them just because you don't like what they're doing. You cannot justify votekicking someone for NOT breaking any rules. I can't believe you would suggest something so absurd.

And no. I ran a server and have done research into quickplay. Not once did I ever come across "blocking a weapon will delist the server from quickplay". Blocking a weapon is a server side plugin using sourcemod that does not remove the server from quickplay. I don't know where you got that idea, but that is completely untrue. Here's the OFFICIAL valve dev post on the subject of Quickplay. Please read it: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=2825-AFGJ-3513 . Blocking a weapon does not vary any of the Cvar tags related to friendlyfire, respawntimes, nocrits, norespawntimes, nodmgspread, highlander, or noquickplay. It simply denies a weapon from loading.

From my perspective, if someone is ruining a game in anyway they may be kicked. Although I do disagree with kicking someone because of what weapon they use.

And engineer can easily build up a level 3 SG right next to his spawn with a metal supply.

If you do not like the use of mini-sentries on Lotus servers, then leave, find a different server that has mini-sentries disabled. Easiest solution there is, Lotus isn't going to disable a weapon just to make a few people like you happy. The majority of people don't have problems with mini-sentries from what I see on the server I play.

[Ruby 9,039]

You list the things that can destroy a sentry yes, but what you missed is the fact there is no gratification for destroying them. They can just be rebuilt as easily as they are destroyed. Destroying a level 3 or any other kind of sentry has a window of lenience because the engi has to rebuild it up, and as I mentioned since they don't go up at full health and need to be cared for while they are built, unlike mini sentries, there is no grace period. In that time you can easily get the engi while he's fumbling to put up another regular sentry.

Yes, a good team can counter anything, but we're talking from a perspective of balance. Say the teams are completely balanced (hypothetically), then give one team a mini sentry. Now the team with the minis will have the advantage compared to the team that doesn't, whereas if you give them a regular sentry, its not nearly as balance breaking, since the sentry needs to be built up to become its full potential. You have a period of time you can easily catch the engi off guard. And even if a level 3 is built up, you can be assured that when you destroy it, another one won't be up for a period of time, whereas a mini goes up right away after it is destroyed.

Engineee with a level 3 dispenser can build a level 3 sentry, which has over double the health of a mini and over triple the fire rate, in under a minute. If another team has a minisentry, nothing stops your entire team from going combat engy. I've seen GOOD engineers CONSISTENTLY building level 3s right next to the point and it caused my team WAY more problems than a minisentry could ever cause. A full blown sentry always, in every case, destroys a minisentry engy, especially with weapons such as the jag and rescue ranger.

Being that you're admin, that is an AWFUL way to treat players if you're just going to votekick them just because you don't like what they're doing. You cannot justify votekicking someone for NOT breaking any rules. I can't believe you would suggest something so absurd.

I will never KICK a player nor initiate a votekick for using a weapon I disagree with. IMO the Sticky Launcher is a way bigger problem on Harvest than a minisentry, yet I won't ban people from using it. Votekick needs 60% of the server to agree and I can't stand in the way of democracy, if people want someone kicked, then I can't and won't do anything about it. I am personally not treating anyone bad if I tell people to use tools available to every player in game. Whether you can or can not justify it is another story - the fact that it was possible before I was an admin, it is possible now and it will be possible when - if - I leave Lotus should tell you I have nothing with votekicks, votebans or votescrambles.

And no. I ran a server and have done research into quickplay. Not once did I ever come across "blocking a weapon will delist the server from quickplay". Blocking a weapon is a server side plugin using sourcemod that does not remove the server from quickplay. I don't know where you got that idea, but that is completely untrue. Here's the OFFICIAL valve dev post on the subject of Quickplay. Please read it: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=2825-AFGJ-3513 . Blocking a weapon does not vary any of the Cvar tags related to friendlyfire, respawntimes, nocrits, norespawntimes, nodmgspread, highlander, or noquickplay. It simply denies a weapon from loading.

I've read the post, and it seems valid, although I do not run the server I admin. You are gonna have to wait for Mana or a staff member to get a more official response, but just to repeat my point, minisentries have caused me no problems ever in over 100 hours on Harvest and they're annoying at best. Restricting what players can do in the sense of legitimate gameplay is the best way to lose regulars and annoy other players.

Also, props for the constructive and thought-out posts. We need more of those here. You should join us.

[Orbit - dBs 179]

Off topic but this was a meaningful and directed discussion.

Possum would disapprove.

[causee 2]

From my perspective, if someone is ruining a game in anyway they may be kicked. Although I do disagree with kicking someone because of what weapon they use.

And engineer can easily build up a level 3 SG right next to his spawn with a metal supply.

If you do not like the use of mini-sentries on Lotus servers, then leave, find a different server that has mini-sentries disabled. Easiest solution there is, Lotus isn't going to disable a weapon just to make a few people like you happy. The majority of people don't have problems with mini-sentries from what I see on the server I play.

Building a sentry in spawn contributes nothing to a team regardless. If you want to move a sentry up from spawn, you have to slowly walk it up, then put it down and build it up all of which you can be caught in the act and killed with your sentry. Mini sentries can just be put down and left. No consequences.

Lotus Clan has an almost monopoly on 24/7 Harvest servers near my area so I can play with a decent ping, being full most of the time. Also, there is only one other server that runs no minis, of which is a usually empty server, that when it fills up, it is a 32 limit server. I don't know about you, but 32 people on Harvest is just cancer. I would find another server, but honestly lets be real. And I think we're both opinionated on the situation about who likes minis. From what I've seen, people do not like them on Harvest.

Engineee with a level 3 dispenser can build a level 3 sentry, which has over double the health of a mini and over triple the fire rate, in under a minute. If another team has a minisentry, nothing stops your entire team from going combat engy. I've seen GOOD engineers CONSISTENTLY building level 3s right next to the point and it caused my team WAY more problems than a minisentry could ever cause. A full blown sentry always, in every case, destroys a minisentry engy, especially with weapons such as the jag and rescue ranger.I will never KICK a player nor initiate a votekick for using a weapon I disagree with. IMO the Sticky Launcher is a way bigger problem on Harvest than a minisentry, yet I won't ban people from using it. Votekick needs 60% of the server to agree and I can't stand in the way of democracy, if people want someone kicked, then I can't and won't do anything about it. I am personally not treating anyone bad if I tell people to use tools available to every player in game. Whether you can or can not justify it is another story - the fact that it was possible before I was an admin, it is possible now and it will be possible when - if - I leave Lotus should tell you I have nothing with votekicks, votebans or votescrambles.I've read the post, and it seems valid, although I do not run the server I admin. You are gonna have to wait for Mana or a staff member to get a more official response, but just to repeat my point, minisentries have caused me no problems ever in over 100 hours on Harvest and they're annoying at best. Restricting what players can do in the sense of legitimate gameplay is the best way to lose regulars and annoy other players.

Also, props for the constructive and thought-out posts. We need more of those here. You should join us.

The question isn't the power and speed of the sentries, its the spam-ability and the consequences from using them on the map. Yes, they have less health but what does it matter when they are more abundant then grass. If level 3s were so viable over the mini sentry on the map, then we would see more of them, but as we all know, we see more minis on the map compared to regular sentries (excluding the fact of new players who do not have the gunslinger and pick engi because lol sentry guns). And I don't know how sticky launchers are worse then a machine that auto-aims for you.

[Ruby 9,039]

The question isn't the power and speed of the sentries, its the spam-ability and the consequences from using them on the map. Yes, they have less health but what does it matter when they are more abundant then grass. If level 3s were so viable over the mini sentry on the map, then we would see more of them, but as we all know, we see more minis on the map compared to regular sentries (excluding the fact of new players who do not have the gunslinger and pick engi because lol sentry guns). And I don't know how sticky launchers are worse then a machine that auto-aims for you.

You can talk like that about any weapon. I don't know what is worse than an infinitly spammable weapon that inflicts 100 damage when you hit rightclick and can be spammed across the map. I don't know what is worse than a weapon where you hold left click and it mows down people in tight corridors at 50 damage per bullet close range. I don't know what is worse than a weapon that, even if it only touches you for a brief moment, deals 45 to 60 damage over time. You can go on like that forever - those are not arguments.

We see more minis because the engineers building them are less experienced. That's the same reason why you see more soldiers with escape plan instead of market gardener. Again, nothing is stopping you or anyone else from typing "!votekick" in chat. It's how servers work.

[Reisen 1,973]

never... NEVER... TOUCH... MY... MINISENTRY!

If we don't remove all the other Bitchweapons in this game, then don't even start by removing just 1. Some weapons are good on specific maps. It's not a reason to ban them from specific servers hosting the map. As much as i complain about OP Stickyspam, it's fairly shit on many other maps except for Dustbowl and maybe some other tinyass map.

I could also complain all day about Machina 1hko bodyshot on most classes weaker than pyro. But I think it's up to Valve to decide if stuff should be patched/removed/fixed.

[Possum 10,776]

Minisentries go down really quickly, but you cannot just charge at them head-on. Use your head, communicate with your team as to their position, and don't just do a Leeroy Jenkins. Use your class' strengths, the mini's weaknesses, and dictate the engagement on your own terms as much as possible.

[Reisen 1,973]

In the case that there is a person really annoying with his minis and seems to ruin the game for everyone, you can usually votekick him.

Phew.. good thing I'm female.

[Nano 7,892]

There are no plans to change the weapons available on any servers.

Thanks for the suggestion!