Thoughts On New Patch

[Asjo 90]

I think it would be interesting to hear people's thought on the recent patch, which changed a lot of the existing weapons. At first glance, the changes didn't seem too earth-shattering, but upon a closer look, some of them actually seem more significant than I had thought.

You can see the full list of changed in Valve's official post about the update. Here are the ones that stood out to me:

Wrangler

Slightly reduced accuracy of manually-controlled sentry at long range

I like this. I think the Wrangler is way too strong in some situations. And one way to really abuse is to use it from a completely different position, which can make it really hard to stop the wrangler (engie might still need a partner to repair it for ammo, of course). So, this diminishes the use of the wrangler a bit, without altering the general use.

Protective shield now fades 1 second after the owning Engineer dies

All in all, I'd say this makes the Wrangler more powerful, depending on the map. On spammaps (like most cp-maps are), there's definitely a great chance that the Wrangler will die during an attack if the shield goes quicker. But on maps where the action is less compact and where only a few attacks attack a certain point at the same time, they will often rely on the wrangler doing nothing after they kill the engineer and finish off his teammates.

So, since I like the idea of that the Wrangler has this weakness, I feel it's a shame it's been removed.

Liberty Launcher

Removed: 25% reduced clip size penalty

Added: 25% reduced damage penalty

I'd bet that most "serious" players who have been using Liberty Launcher regularly would rather have damage than one more shot. After all, with that kind of damage reduction, it's hard to kill people before they kill you. Of course, what's awesome awesome about Liberty Launcher is how fast the shots hit your opponents, making it harder for them to dodge, and I'm sure that the four shots will make it better for a "mop up job". I think it will be less used after this change, but it certainly has more unique characteristics, which makes for a more interesting mix of weapons. The problem is just that the combo of fast shots doing little damage means that this weapon will likely be used to spam from a distance, and people will complain about the weapons more than they have previously.

Escape Plan

Players receive the Marked-For-Death effect after deploying, and for a short period after holstering.

Because of how often Se7en gets kritz with this weapon, it felt a bit overpowered. There was a reason why The Equalizer was changed after all. Therefore, I rejoiced for a second when I saw this change, which means that soldiers cannot just use Escape Plan freely at any time. But, giving it a second on thought, I realized this change was a bit sad. After all, Escape Plan is an item which creates some great action. I'm always very impressed when soldier, who have used up their shots, have really low HP, switch to Escape Plan at just the right second and use the speed to make an unexpected move and kill me with a calculated random kritz before I can swing my Axtinguisher. And Se7en technically deserves his kritz after all

Cow Mangler

Reduced clip size (from 5 to 4)

Removed -10% damage attribute
Removed 5% slower reload attribute

To be honest, I never really used Cow Mangler except when I was new at the game. The weapons never made much sense to me and didn't seem versatile thought, with its lack of damage against buildings. It's hard to call whether this is an improvement of the weapon or not. I didn't know it had five shots. Initially, I'd say that the Cow Mangler is weakened, since the damage change isn't that big, but having five shots would really help out in tight situations.

I really don't like the new shot-animations. It dominates the visuals too much. Every time I see it, it puts me completely off my game and I feel I have no idea what's going on. I was unable to see the old shots most of the time, and this failed to airblast them, but this is overdoing it.

Crit-A-Cola


Removed: Damage taken mini-crits
Added: Damage taken increased 25%

This change makes Crit-A-Cola more viable. I feel it's a decent tactical item, and I'm happy that it will be given more of a chance. Before, you'd take heavy damage from any range. Now you take less damage and you won't take the same damage regardless of range.

Quick-Fix

Added 50% Overheal

Now Quick-Fix is a much more viable choice for medics, and since I like variation, I think that's great. It has often seemed like the use of Quick-Fix was quite limited and that its shitty über meant that the team would suffer overall if a medic went with it. But with this change on top of other recent changes, I'd say Quick Fix can be as good a choice as any other medi gun. I also suspect that with the overheal, it will make for some scare combinations, since some fights will be a lot more one-sided. On servers with few low-skill players, a soldier or scout with a Quick-Fix medic might seem impossible to kill.

Vaccinator

Über now fully absorbs crit damage for the selected damage type, but depletes Übercharge based on the amount of damage prevented

This change doesn't really change the limitations of this medi gun, as I've described them in my medic guide. However, it's a definite improvement. Depletion of the charge it definitely worth is when I crit would otherwise likely kill you.

Croc-O-Style

Removed headshot immunity

Well, thank God. Less of these guys would be nice. As I've often said when people complain about the "bodyshot snipers" is that I'd much rather get bodyshot than headshotted. That doesn't change the fact that these guys are annoying and also have an unfair advantage against other snipers, who have to "spam" them down.

Dead Ringer

When under the effect of Feign Death, damage taken decreases the duration of the effect

Like Escape Plan, I feel that an item like Dead Ringer can create some great action in the game. I like how it means that spies often charge right at their opponents and are much less timid. Spies who hide in a corner five minutes to stab someone just don't add to the fun as much. And this change definitely weakens Dead Ringer. It seems that the cloak dissipates very quickly. While this is not the end of Dead Ringer, I feel a bit sad that that the challenge us pyros will have chasing them down is now significantly less so.

L'Etranger

Added: 40% increased cloak duration

If someone drops the intel, I have an internal clock which means I know the second that it will reset, without consciously trying to count the seconds. Likewise, I have a clear sense of when an cloak should expire. It feels a bit unfortunately when you change base game mechanics so that no one can truly know what to expect from the game. But then again, I suppose it's part of "being skilled" to be aware of which weapons your opponents use and figure out how this will affect game mechanics. Either way, I'm happy that this will mean that more people use L'Etranger - all in the name of variation, making this gun an ever better alternative to Ambassador.

Chargin' Targe

Added: Afterburn immunity

At first I thought: "So, if they charge, the fire is put out? I thought that was already the case. Oh well, cool.". Then I played the game. It turns out that I now cannot put demoknights on fire. I'm not quite sure Valve thought this out. I play with the Degreaser/Axtinguisher combination to make up for the fact that the pyro is not able to kill people quickly enough. So, if you don't use Axtinguisher, you're relegated to sneaky corner fights or fooling people into having their projectiles airblasted. If you really want to do damage, you have to get close, but without the Axtinguisher, the pyro just doesn't do damage quickly enough, and getting close to your opponents and playing aggressively will cause you to die very quickly. So far, demoknight have been some of the easiest kills I could get. They charge, and I airblast and I put them on fire, airblast them back and axe them in the same second, meaning that charging at a good pyro is basically suicide.

However, now you're pretty much immune to pyros. With my loadout of Degreaser/Flare Gun/Axtinguisher, the only way I can kill a demoknight is with the flamethrower. In other words, I have to run around him and slowly kill him with my flame, meaning I'm force to stay close enough that can hit me or charge at me again (if he's close enough, I won't be able to react). If I'm lucky enough that he shoots pipe bombs at me that I can deflect, I'm staying so close to him that any deflected bombs will do great damage to myself. Now, I like a challenge, and I'm sure that I'm skilled enough that I could kill a demoknight comfortably with the flamethrower, airblasting him away before he ever gets a chance to hit me (like I do with "pyro sharks" who use Neon Annihilator). The problems is regardless of how good I am as pyro, I'm forced to use ten seconds killing them demo, meaning his teammates have every chance to kill me while I do it. You can compare it to how fighting a sticky camping is very challenging, but it just seems like a stupid challenge - a waste of my time.

So, definitely a game changer. I'm sure that I won't notice which shield the demos use, so I will assume that any demoknight cannot be axed. Sadly, this change will likely also mean a lot less demoknight will use Splendid Screen, decreasing the variation in item use.

[DutchKev 425]

not happy about sahara spy set changing at all, the dead ringer is so loud that any attempt at a sneak attack behind enemy lines in near impossible without detection

i've been playing DR spy for a long time now and i like the fact that it makes you pro active in the game - i don't like playing cloak and dagger spy as as you rightly pointed out, you hide in a corner for 5 mins and do nothing waiting for a stab - and to me thats defeats the purpose of spy

the DR was nerfed once before which was understandable, but this new update imo has ruined the gameplay and my particular play style

and on a personal (and slightly selfish) note - my unusual familiar fez is now worthless - i might as well sell now and look for a new spy set

[Possum 10,776]

It has not ruined the gameplay, it has stopped the DR ruining it.

[Ghost_Jor 583]

The Charge 'n Targe afterburn immunity makes demomen alot more annoying for pyros. Luckily I use the Reserve Shooter so it's less of a problem. But for the Flare gun/Aextignusher combo, it's pretty difficult to kill them as a pyro now. I agree with you there, I'm not sure Valve completely thought that through.

[point 2,268]

The Charge 'n Targe afterburn immunity makes demomen alot more annoying for pyros. Luckily I use the Reserve Shooter so it's less of a problem. But for the Flare gun/Aextignusher combo, it's pretty difficult to kill them as a pyro now. I agree with you there, I'm not sure Valve completely thought that through.

I disagree, I think Valve wanted to push more pyros back to the shotgun, it's boring to see every pro pyro with the same freakin' loadout every single time. What I was kinda dissapointed by was still the lack of bullet resistance. I mean, sure nerf sollies and pyros, but make sure every single other class; particularly scout is very very good at killing demopanknights.

[Ghost_Jor 583]

I disagree, I think Valve wanted to push more pyros back to the shotgun, it's boring to see every pro pyro with the same freakin' loadout every single time. What I was kinda dissapointed by was still the lack of bullet resistance. I mean, sure nerf sollies and pyros, but make sure every single other class; particularly scout is very very good at killing demopanknights.

If they wanted to push pyros away from the typical load out, then I think they would have reduced the crit damage or something. Buffing a demoknight doesn't isn't that much of an incentive to change to the shotgun or Reserve Shooter, just annoying for the Axetinguisher/ Flare pyro when one does show up.

I'm also probably a bit bias towards pyros since I'm one of them. And anything that makes it harder for me makes me sad since I'm already pretty bad.

[+Dr. Obvious 14,606]

I'm just glad they didn't touch my Blutsauger.

As for the quickfix changes... i predict rocketjumping pocketmedics. Rocketjumping pocketsmedics everywhere, as this is EXACTLY what this will push - the additional mobility the Quickfix already got, with the front-line strength of overheal.

[Jakoby 38]

I'm just glad they didn't touch my Blutsauger.

As for the quickfix changes... i predict rocketjumping pocketmedics. Rocketjumping pocketsmedics everywhere, as this is EXACTLY what this will push - the additional mobility the Quickfix already got, with the front-line strength of overheal.

Rocketjumping pocketmedics can now assist their soldier friends on the bombardment of the Batts.

[Se7en 10,762]

I'm very happy I didn't have to say it myself, yes, I deserve my kritz.

[Harlequin 2,975]

all I have to complain about atm is...

the hell? you still give pyros the possibility to remove sappers within one swing? oh gabeN...you dissapointed me there.

the next time i see a pyro dare to do this crap I full "red retard recorder". period.

[Possum 10,776]

Rocketjumping pocketmedics can now assist their soldier friends on the bombardment of the Batts.

They could for a while now, but 50% overheal now makes it MUCH more viable though. Can't wait to play against Kitten and Man-Kitten again....

[Ruby 9,039]

all I have to complain about atm is...

the hell? you still give pyros the possibility to remove sappers within one swing? oh gabeN...you dissapointed me there.

the next time i see a pyro dare to do this crap I full "red retard recorder". period.

I'd be okay with sappers taking two swings to remove for pyros if they removed rapid sapping for spies.

[Harlequin 2,975]

its not suposed to be a pyros job. otherwise add a friggin deployable flamertower to pyro loadout and remove engi class. if the pyro fails in doing his job and cant protect engi and sentry, wich includes the engi also failed, why give him a THIRD chance to nullify the spys effort? BS

[+Dr. Obvious 14,606]

its not suposed to be a pyros job. otherwise add a friggin deployable flamertower to pyro loadout and remove engi class. if the pyro fails in doing his job and cant protect engi and sentry, wich includes the engi also failed, why give him a THIRD chance to nullify the spys effort? BS

As long as there is facestabs, and sidestabs, thou shallt not complain.

[Harlequin 2,975]

as long as there are failstabs, facestabs are legit.

[Possum 10,776]

Facestabs are never legit.

[Harlequin 2,975]

yes, they are. just because what you think a facestab is, does not change the fact that on my screen I stabbed the back.

[Possum 10,776]

So you're saying its my fault that sometimes I can do everything right, yet still get "backstabbed"?

[Harlequin 2,975]

yes, because sometimes "I can do everything right, yet not get a correct backstab"

It's the same when you jump behind a wall for cover, and still get headshoted... no one calls that a "wallshot" or something, you just nod, curse valve for lag compensation, and move on.

You're also raging for become lucky critzed a third time in a row, but then again, you just call it "fuck valve" - but you never blame the person for it.

why should only spys suffer for all the reasons / problems we all share? you just never notice a spy that failstabs you. all you see is the facestab.

[Asjo 90]

I wanted to post my concerns about the Chargin' Targe change somewhere where the developers could take notice. I've now waited for three days now for my account on the Steam forums to be approved - I guess they're on holiday. So, if someone already has an approved account and feel like it, you're welcome to post the below:

Subject: Case for changing recently added afterburn immunity on Chargin' Targe

Base of case: I intend to explain why the afterburn immunity on Chargin' Targe needs to be changed to 75% afterburn reduction based on how the immunity skews the pyro vs demoknight match-up. Briefly put, the disadvantage that pyros with the Degreaser/Flare Gun/Axtinguisher loadout suffer against demoknights is so significant that it creates an uncessary unbalance in the gameplay.

The impact of afterburn immunity for pyros fighting demoknights: Degreaser/Flare Gun/Axtinguisher is likely the most popular pyro loadout - and with good reason. Since pyros need to get in close range to kill their opponents, offensive pyros, who don't want to play too passively, simply have to use Axtinguisher/Postal Pummeler in order to kill opponents quickly enough before they are killed themselves. And while Flare Gun is optional, it compliments the Degreaser/Axtinguisher combo the best. You can see a more detailed explanation of this in the chapter "weapons of choice" of my pyro guide.

So, the premise of my case is that most pyros use the above loadout while most demoknights, after the recent update, use Chargin' Targe. This means that suddenly these pyros have very few viable options for killing the demos. I will lay out the different options that the pyros have to kill the demoknights:

• 1) The most viable and likely option for a pyro to kill a demoman who cannot catch fire is to use the continous damage of the flame thrower. For many pyros, this will mean a likely death since the demo will do more damage with his melee weapon that the pyro will do with his flames. The best pyros will be able to kill a demo without taking any damage by using the flamethrower while running around and away from the demo, all the while blasting the demo away from melee range and into a corner (so that you can keep doing damage and don’t have to run after the demo).
  
• 2) Airblasting pipe bombs back at the demo is a good options for killing him. However, you cannot be sure the demo will even shoot pipe bombs at you. And you cannot rely fully on airblasting pipe bombs from a distance, since this would be too predictable, allowing the demo to easily dodge the deflected pipe bombs. Using deflected pipe bombs will have to be in combination with option one, where you get into close range with the flame thrower. This means that no matter how skilled a pyro you are, you will still take significant damage from the blast if you use airblasted pipes to kill the demo.
  
• 3) Airblasting the demo away and slowly wearing him down with a combination of flares and flames is also an option that gives you a chance that escape combat with a demoknight relatively unscathed. However, that would mean that the pyro would need to use up all their ammo to have chance against the demoknight. It would also take ages to kill the demo this way, meaning it's hardly a viable option. It's even worse when you consider how exposed a pyro is to charge when having to use the flare gun against a demo at close range.

Option one, as described above, is the most realistic option for a pyro who wants to kill a demoknight. While it might seem like a decent option in some situations, it's really a liability. A good pyro might be able to kill the demo without taking any damage, but will take ten seconds to do so, with what running away from the demo and with the 50% fire resistance that Chargin' Targe also provides. At the same time, when you're in that close range to a demo, airblasting away a charging demo becomes near impossible. When it’s possible to kill the demo quickly, you can keep him at a slight distance with airblasts and predict when he has a window to charge. But in all of the ten seconds that it will take to kill the demo with the flamethrower, you are open to a charge from the demo.

Shotgun pyros still have decent chance, but the rest will suffer. While the above describes the fighting limitations of the pyro, there are two more factors that add to the disadvantage of the pyro:

• When the demo takes heads with Eyelander/Horseless Headless Horsemann's Headtaker/Nessie's Nine Iron, his movement speed increases. After taking just one head, he is faster than the pyro, which means that the tactic of staying out of melee range and using the flamethrower becomes much harder. After the demo has taken 2-3 heads, this tactic becomes near impossible. Suddenly, the pyro has no real way to fight the demo.
  
• While some demoknights might still use Splendid Screen, it's hard for a pyro to distinguish which shield is being used in the heat of battle. Therefore, the pyros will, more often than not, refrain from using Axtinguisher or Flare Gun to kill demoknights. If they move in for the axe hit and it turns out that the demo cannot catch fire, they've just opened themselves up to a free hit from the demo. Only when the pyro can actually see that the demo remains on fire will the pyro be able to make such decision. This means that the disadvantage that pyros suffer against demoknights is more universal.

Why would the proposed change help? An 75% afterburn reduction would mean that the demo would only stay on fire for 2,5 seconds. This time would allow the pyros be able to do damage in their regular manner. However, it would still be of great benefit to the demoknights to use Chargin' Targe. While the pyros would still be able to get instant crit by combining Degreaser with Flare Gun or Axtinguisher, they would not be able to, for instance, set the demo on fire, airblast him away, move away and then trick him into position for a flare shot. It would also be unlikely that the pyro hits the demo with two flares within the 2,5 seconds, meaning that their options for doing damange at distance to the demoknights are quite limited. Pyro would also not be able to rely on afterburn to finish off a demo after an engagement, giving a low health demoknight a much better chance of getting away.

What's also great about this change is that it adds balance. Whereas all demos will now want to use Chargin' Targe because it gives them an universal fix for pyros, the decision to use it wouldn't be as clear cut with the change I propose. Pyros still have way of killing you, but their overall ability is diminished. So, you get a pretty good advantage against pyros, while Splendid Screen gives you a slightly less decisive advantage against more classes.

[Reisen 1,973]

For Short: Valve smoked a piece of shit they found in their toilet and decided to give Charge n Targe, which ALREADY had a strong res against fire an Immunity to afterburn. I mean seriously Valve, WTF. You took 1 damage afterburn which was completely ok, fire never was a mattering point to me when I was Demoknight with Charge n Targe. So why change it? Another one of those "Noobs are too stupid to deal with some things, so we boost the buffs in their asses" situations?

Edited July 18, 2013 by Marisa

[+Cactus 4,948]

Shotgun pyros still have decent chance, but the rest will suffer. While the above describes the fighting limitations of the pyro, there are two more factors that add to the disadvantage of the pyro:

In this case, Reserve Shooter > Shotgun. Flame, airblast, Reserve Shooter mini-crit to the face. Repeat if necessary.

Can also use the airblast to stall the charge, and mini-crit with the RS as well. Once charge is gone, back to step 1.

[Asjo 90]

Yes, "shotgun pyros" refers to any shotgun. I suppose pyros who hit their mark often with Reserve Shooter and are confident about airblasting to stop the charge will have an easier time, while some pyros would prefer the normal shotgun where they can more confortably (albeit more slowly) gun down their opponent, airblasting them away if they get into a good position. One thing to consider is that you might have to gun down several opponents, not just the charging demoknights

[point 2,268]

The solution to all your problems.

[Nano 7,892]

Love it asjo, right on. You may however want to wait until your own account gets approved so you can respond to the topic accordingly.