God I Hate Heavies Now!

[EagleEye 20]

I think they really fucked up with the last update where they "Fixed" the natascha... it is doing far too much damage, and the "slowing" effect is actually pushing people back. How you can do that with a percentage reduction in speed is beyond me. 30% of 0 = 0... not a negative.

Anyway... people are catching on to just how OP this is. Tonight we had a team full of heavies and medics... and they mopped the floor with the bloodied corpses of the other team. 4 medics on one heavy = a tank that simply can not be stopped.

Seriously this guy went from DB stage 2 spawn (on defense) and was able to push the entire team back to the shack over the course of about 10 minutes. He didn't die once.

I tried everything I could to kill him. Sniper crit head shots couldn't take him out. Soldier was a no go. Pyro? Forget that... can't even get close enough. His spam prevented spies from getting behind him... his medic(s) were always protected by a wall of bullets. How he kept enough ammo to keep pushing forward was simple... all of his kills dropped the ammo for him.

If you think that's bad... the rest of the team started going heavy as well. 4 or 5 heavies, supported by 5 medics? Not even worth trying anymore... the game became very un-fun.

I found the session data for this guy... seriously...

2009-02-24 @ 00:21 - 01:44 cp_dustbowl 01:22:11 400 62 0 0.00% 0.00% 7391.02

Are you fricking kidding me?

400 kills, 62 deaths. Almost a 7:1 ratio.

As a heavy.

[Repoman 0]

You should have all been heavies too.

Heavy rush them or Demo spam them.

[Rydawg 14]

Suck less? I have no issue dealing with heavies as any class. DUnno how many i have killes as scout or eng with shotty this last week, and demo v heavy = easy button.

[Plasma Waffle 0]

All you would have really had to do was get 2-3 demos on your team, rush in with an uber pyro, air blast everyone to seperate them, have the demos running in behind starting with pipe bomb spam and then sticky bomb spam. It's really more simple then it sounds, just communicate a bit.

[The Lorax 25]

I'm not sure I would agree that natascha is now OP, but I would say it is much more annoying. It also seems, for whatever reason that there are more people playing heavy these days, and that has led to a lot of uneven games. I would agree that most heavies are easy to deal with, but those that have their own personal medics that do nothing but heal them and only them are a huge pain in the ass. What's worse is that if you have an opposing team with a decent heavy and personal medic, it seems the whole team starts to think they should be heavies too. Playing on these teams is even more annoying then playing against them. You can't get a heal to save your life (literally), and those personal medics wont dare break off of their precious fattie to keep you from dying.

Now, I have played rounds where I have had no medic help, and I have played rounds where I have had the fortune of having a good medic on me the entire round, and anyone who has played this game for more than a day will tell you that your skill level and number of kills go up exponentially with the amount of medic help you get. Even if you are an average player, you can get to the top of the frag list by having a personal medic. I had a period where I went from the 100's in stats to 20's for a month or so, mostly because I had a medic on me 90% of the time I was playing. I am certainly not an elite player, in fact these days I have been below average, but those rounds with the medic were the highest KDR I had ever had. (surprise, surprise) I saw a jump in rank by nearly a 100 in less than a week. As soon as that medic stopped playing on the same server, my rank went straight back down into the mud. Hmmm... coincidence? Probably not.

It's easy enough to say, "You suck," or "you just need more communication," but that is being a little dismissive. Now, a heavy alone or with a single medic is easy enough to kill, but the reality is that when you are facing a decent heavy with 2 or more medics, he is not always an easy one to take out, especially on dustbowl.

Now, I know who eagle eye is talking about, and I have played against him many times. He never plays without his little buddy medic, who will absolutely not break off of him for anything. If you criticize that for a second they both attack you in chat for the rest of the game. What is so funny about this guy is that he usually only gets killed by demos, and when he does, he just relentlessly whines about how demos are cowards and how we all suck and have no skill (you know typical bullshit). I can't stand playing with the guy, whether on his team or against him, and usually when he or his buddy pop on, I'll move to another server.

I've also seen him play without his precious medics, and guess what, he isn't that good. Now I know that that is the nature of the heavy. Obviously they mostly need medic support to be of any use, but it is easy to tell who has actual skill playing the class and who relies on his medic more. Bananafone is a good example of this. Even on his own he can take out half the opposing team without much trouble. He has skill, even without a permanently attached doctor.

What's worse is that this guy is incredibly arrogant and thinks the whole team should revolve around him. All ubers go to him, which for most maps means failure (especially the final stages of dustbowl and goldrush). I give credit to the people with skill. If you can take out half a team on your own without any support, you have skill. But let's please all acknowledge that a heavy taking out a squad while receiving his 4th uber into the frontlines is not skill, it's medic pandering.

All right I'll get off my soapbox now.

[Rydawg 14]

GOod post, though ive havent played much with eagle so can't say anything on that.

I think people play against heavies all wrong. There is a million ways to deal with a medic heavy.

- After medics, heavies should be the #2 priority for snipers. Dunno how many heavies i have killed when they are coming around a corner firing and i'm 5 feet away. Head shot ftw

-Pyro is the ultimate heavy + medic disruptor, dunno how many ubers i have killed as pyro just by using the airblast feature. Also. Anytime you can air blast a heavy a couple times when he is shooting teammates will give enough time to kill him and medic.

- with the small engi update. Heavy + lvl 3 dispenser is a rival to medic + Heavy. Not as good but its getting close.

[+Henry Spencer 117]

I know a lot of people will probably disagree, but when Lorax said, "If you can take out half a team on your own without any support, you have skill", it immediately reminded me of a few people that play Demoman a lot. And yeah, a lot of people think the Demo is overpowered, but there's a difference betwen OMGZ STICKY SPAMMMMM! and killing half the team efficiently. That's why I respect people like Tux, Mojo, and Keg (among others) that actually play the class well.

[Melissia 7]

On any map with chokepoints, demoman just takes caution and patience. I know on goldrush 1, I've single-handedly blocked routes for almost the entire game on defense (for example, the route to the attick, or the route to the upstairs section on the left (using a bomb jump to get up there)-- and I can't claim to be a great demoman player. An ubered or kritz'd demoman with skill (or an uber'd kritz'd demoman, ouch) is probably the deadliest force in the game, able to wipe uot entire teams unless they scatter and flee.

Heavies are stronger now than before, at least natascha heavies are. But I don't see that as a bad thing.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Melissia

[Benny Hill 0]

Now, I know who eagle eye is talking about, and I have played against him many times. He never plays without his little buddy medic, who will absolutely not break off of him for anything. If you criticize that for a second they both attack you in chat for the rest of the game. What is so funny about this guy is that he usually only gets killed by demos, and when he does, he just relentlessly whines about how demos are cowards and how we all suck and have no skill (you know typical bullshit). I can't stand playing with the guy, whether on his team or against him, and usually when he or his buddy pop on, I'll move to another server.

I don't know if I've ever played with this specific person, but what I truly hate is when, during a Dustbowl match, 2nd stage, 2nd cap, with a large sentry farm, a medic and heavy go uber out there (right side through the tunnel). A heavy does not belong there unless there's one sentry or less. A demo can take out two sentries if he's competant, but a heavy can never take more than 1 sentry out if the engies are guarding (and that's lucky).

I've seen medics that, when charged, just go out and uber the heavy when there are two demomen calling for medic right in front of them. Even when requested with voice they still just go and uber their heavy buddy. I hate that.

PS: EagleEye, you may remember that uber you complained about (i was pyro). I guarantee you that that was completely out of the ordinary for me. I usually am much more competent at using ubers to their full potential.

[The Lorax 25]

I know a lot of people will probably disagree, but when Lorax said, "If you can take out half a team on your own without any support, you have skill", it immediately reminded me of a few people that play Demoman a lot. And yeah, a lot of people think the Demo is overpowered, but there's a difference betwen OMGZ STICKY SPAMMMMM! and killing half the team efficiently. That's why I respect people like Tux, Mojo, and Keg (among others) that actually play the class well.

Agreed.

Taking out half the opposition does not necessarily equal skill. There is obviously more to it than that. I think that is why demos get the rep of "no skill required." I have seen demos that are normally terrible manage to take out an entire team and win the round, just because they spam the hell out of a certain chokepoint. I have also seen demos with outrageous skill pick people off on open ground time after time. Killing people with direct pipes - skill. Killing people with well placed stickies - skill. Spamming randomly - mostly luck. Personally I have gotten to a level of skill with the demo that I can consistently kill with direct pipe hits. Nothing is more satisfying. People like Mojo and Tux are definitely examples of people with skill. They need little medic support and can consistently kill.

[friedrice 8]

I think natasha is just stronger at medium range, when people are usually able to run away from a heavy. The natash just makes it a little more difficult.

Anyway, that many heavies and medics are hard to deal with, no matter what gun they have. The problem is the heavy is probably the easiest class to use. Note that I'm not saying anyone can be an expert with them. But when you turn a corner and there's a heavy, all they have to do is just point and hold down the fire button.

[Melissia 7]

no, they can't actually. They have to already be revved up to do that, or you can just go back around the corner and run.

[Plasma Waffle 0]

I think natasha is just stronger at medium range, when people are usually able to run away from a heavy. The natash just makes it a little more difficult.

Anyway, that many heavies and medics are hard to deal with, no matter what gun they have. The problem is the heavy is probably the easiest class to use. Note that I'm not saying anyone can be an expert with them. But when you turn a corner and there's a heavy, all they have to do is just point and hold down the fire button.

Easy to learn, hard to master.

[Nket 16]

CRY SOME MOREEEE

[EagleEye 20]

@Benny - Yeah, I got a little miffed, but I saw throughout the rest of the game that you had skill...

@Lorax - Yup, this guy is a skill-less idiot with a pocket healer. Dude had 2 or 3 ubers per minute too... it was annoying, lacking in any skill (unless you can count berating your entire team to give you all the ubers as "skill"), and rather effective.

It also didn't help that we didn't have any good demos on the team (Trust me, I am not a good demo... pyro and sniper are my two favs).