We Need To Talk.

[Se7en 10,762]

This will likely not earn me friends on either side of this, but I feel like throwing in my account, as I was actually on the BLU team when all this went down.

I won't begin to claim to be unbiased on this, since Vaginal and myself have butted heads as well but I will try to not let it color any of my accounts.

As things went that night, BLU team had admittedly been talking crap in regards to Vaginal, over voice chat, which ranged from accounts of individual run ins that people had in the past with her, to laughing at anyone that died to her. I too was joining in actually, making fun of Infinity when he'd died with her assisting in his death. I didn't personally see this as anything out of the normal for the server though as it seems like almost any really rambunctious night on EITHER team usually finds someone to latch onto and talk about. Normally it's directed at males though and sorry for calling you out like this, Death, but I've heard you also join in and shit talk several people, the same way we had been about Vag. The only difference I can see is that she's a woman, which seems silly and maybe there is another reasoning behind it that I'm not privileged to, in which case I apologize, but I can only state what I see.

The issue really seemed to start when Hazmat didn't enjoy the words being shared and joined RED instead. Now, I am friends with Hazmat, which might not be the case after posting this, but things got bad when he got on RED and then called out Primary and Infinity in text chat. Now that actually confused me, as, like myself, Primary was just kind of chipping in small death taunts and laughing, but wasn't really starting anything that -I- personally heard. Granted I was more focused on trying to keep my sentry gun alive against constant ubers so I could have missed who was talking. The next issue I saw was when D. who was on RED called out to Infinity that Vaginal was talking shit about them.

Now, I was not on RED, I can not even begin to pretend to know if this was true or not, but I CAN state that in the past, having seen Vaginal and Infinity on a team together, they butt heads and Vaginal is just as vocal and aggressive as Infinity. She is in no way defenseless against his verbal barrage and if there is one good thing I can say about her, she's not meek and she'll give as good as she gets. I also have no doubt that she had plenty of words to say against him to the other team as, like myself, she's a talker and uses the game to sometimes spew her worries/angers/whatever to whatever team she's on. I personally see this as just part of playing a fighting game online. People are dicks and as long as they aren't griefing in ways that make the game unplayable physically, it just seems like the norm. I've been on the terrible end of Orbit's spy attacks where he focuses just me, but I grit my teeth and just keep playing quietly until he gets bored, normally getting a teammate to help spycheck for a while.

As for the comment with the 'Really?' I was dead at the time she posted it, as was she, but came back to life immediately after, so I don't know what it was in regards to, or if she typed any sort of follow up. I saw a few people say 'Really' in reply and I did SEE (edited from 'say') a 'u srs?' or something, but it did fall in line just after a comment over voice that it Could have been to, was it? I can't tell you that, I don't begin to know what the hell goes on in Critler's head and don't want to.

The biggest issue I see is no one was warned, in fact, by the time bans went out, everyone had actually moved on and we were bad mouthing Infinity, calling him a dick and stuff because he had just left for the doctor's and couldn't hear us. Though he is a dick, and he knows this, so I doubt we were saying anything he would be shocked by. Which is why I sort of see the whole thing as just 'another day', everyone talks bad about everyone else and I'm sure my name has been used as a curse a few times too, because I'm an opinionated pain in the ass (as you can see in this post).

I think this was handled badly, I apologize Death, I feel you are a friend and don't want to lose you as one, but I also think this wasn't the way to do what you wanted to do. The fact that you banned and then came over to scold the rest of BLU team after the fact was kind of unneeded as well, if you felt we needed to be warned like that, then we probably should have been on the ban list as well, if not then you shouldn't have made us feel threatened. I think most of the time you are a good mod and admin, I just think your judgement might have been clouded a little bit in this situation.

So that was my two cents, I'm sure it will get me some backlash, but I enjoy playing on Lotus server too much to let it devolve into this arguing without facts and a (semi) impartial retelling of how it went down. Sorry for all the personal opinions mixed in with the recount.

I can see why it was such an awesome idea to keep all talk on most of the time on East Coast x33.

[Ruby 9,039]

So, basically, let me see if I get the gist of your part of the story:

1. You join in on the server.

2. In the server are Vaginal Hubris as Vaginal Hubris, and DEATH STRIKE as DEATH STRIKE or one of his alts.

3. There is some friendly poking at Vaginal.

4. Vaginal being Vaginal fires back and so a verbal war is warming up.

5. Infinity and Vaginal get into a fight.

6. Kyuuji says "o rly" or something along those lines.

7. Critler gets into it and tries to defend Kyuuji-Infinity axis

8. DEATH STRIKE - without prior warning - hits the banhammer.

Right..?

[That Infinity Guy 9]

So, basically, let me see if I get the gist of your part of the story:

1. You join in on the server.

2. In the server are Vaginal Hubris as Vaginal Hubris, and DEATH STRIKE as DEATH STRIKE or one of his alts.

3. There is some friendly poking at Vaginal.

4. Vaginal being Vaginal fires back and so a verbal war is warming up.

5. Infinity and Vaginal get into a fight.

6. Kyuuji says "o rly" or something along those lines.

7. Critler gets into it and tries to defend Kyuuji-Infinity axis

8. DEATH STRIKE - without prior warning - hits the banhammer.

Right..?

You can check the chat logs (if they even exist) but not once are words ever directly exchanged between either of the two parties. Not even in voice chat.

Hither to, the only talking done was from hazmat, calling out Orbit and Gunner for who knows what. At which point, we do what any comedian does with a heckler. We deflate him very casually and jokingly.

From then on, nothing else is known to me, as I left for a Clinic appointment. The others were apparently silent and had dropped the matter for some 30 minutes or so, then were all banned. After effectively silencing us, he used that as a "warning" as he verbally shouted at BLU team for condoning our behavior.

That's as best as I can figure it, I can't know for sure because our accusers have yet to give a solitary shred of evidence or example of what the behavior is that was so detestable to merit an immediate ban.

Surely there is better protocole for this sort of deal than a Kangaroo Court, with our Judge, Jury and Executioner all being one man.

[Adolf Critler 4]

You can check the chat logs (if they even exist) but not once are words ever directly exchanged between either of the two parties. Not even in voice chat.

Hither to, the only talking done was from hazmat, calling out Orbit and Gunner for who knows what. At which point, we do what any comedian does with a heckler. We deflate him very casually and jokingly.

From then on, nothing else is known to me, as I left for a Clinic appointment. The others were apparently silent and had dropped the matter for some 30 minutes or so, then were all banned. Afterwards effectively silencing us, he used that as a "warning" as he verbally shouted at BLU team for condoning our behavior.

That's as best as I can figure it, I can't know because our accusers have yet to give a solitary shred of evidence or example of what the behavior is that was so detestable to merit an immediate ban.

I can confirm this, there was no "verbal war" between the two because they were never on the same team to begin with, and the biggest part of the "chat war" was hazmat calling out Orbit. There was zero voice or just global chat between the accused and Vaginal. Us three were indeed silent after infinity left as everyone had gotten it out of their systems, We were banned. I have several people who were there who will testify for us on that, although it seems Nocture is already here.

[Ruby 9,039]

Surely there is better protocole for this sort of deal than a Kangaroo Court, with our Judge, Jury and Executioner all being one man.

While we are obviously biased a bit towards our members because we trust them more, we can't go against evidence. Staff handles unban requests, and they're known to be objective, so you should have no problem here - if the ban was indeed unjust. So, DEATH STRIKE won't be your jury and executioner, and his decisions, much like any of ours, can be overturned, in case there is a need for it. I assure you will have a just... trial, so to say, as long as you don't go picking unnecessary fights

[FemgineerNocturne 4]

No. I was in the server, Vaginal joined. She went to RED team while Infinity, Critler, Primary, Myself and possibly Orbit? (Honestly didn't see much of him) were on BLU. Hazmat was also on BLU originally. People, over voice, started to talk shit as normal, though a bit heavier on the hatred about Vag. Hazmat team switched then called out at Primary and Infinity through chat. (EDIT: I'm being told I'm remembering wrong and that Infinity wasn't mentioned, but since it is my memory and human's are fallible, I will leave this as is, because to change it would make it look like I'm collaborating, and that's not what I want. I'm trying to give my account as -I- remember. Take it as is.) Things continued on as normal with general comments and laughter regarding Vag or people dying to her, in between the usual calls of 'Incoming here' 'Our intel is going here!' and the like.

At one point D. from RED team states the above posted screen shot, to which there is a renewed laughter and heavy comments regarding Vag on BLU. Then things once again sort of lull to a normal shit talking until Vag says 'Really?' (in regards to what, I don't know) while she's dead. That starts the fire all over again and actually gets a few typed responses, some from people not even talking on mics.

Once more a lull, during which Infinity leaves for the doctors. At that point all conversation regarding Vag is dropped and everyone proceeds to rag on the now gone Infinity, for several minutes before the bans start dropping. Death comes to BLU to ask us if anyone wants to join them and gives a vague scolding that he is tired of it all, then returns to RED after. Nothing more is said as the server slowly clears out, as it was getting late.

(Edit) Unfortunately, I personally can provide no screen shots because it all seemed normal day to me, so I never thought it would come to the point of Needing them, honestly.

[Orbit - dBs 179]

So, basically, let me see if I get the gist of your part of the story:

1. You join in on the server.

2. In the server are Vaginal Hubris as Vaginal Hubris, and DEATH STRIKE as DEATH STRIKE or one of his alts.

3. There is some friendly poking at Vaginal.

4. Vaginal being Vaginal fires back and so a verbal war is warming up.

5. Infinity and Vaginal get into a fight.

6. Kyuuji says "o rly" or something along those lines.

7. Critler gets into it and tries to defend Kyuuji-Infinity axis

8. DEATH STRIKE - without prior warning - hits the banhammer.

Right..?

More like.

1. Regulars are on the server(Orbit, Infinity, Critler, BOB etc)

2. Death and Vaginal Join

3. Business goes on for a while

4. Vaginal somehow gets frustrated and starts something up

5. I attempt a witty remark at the group of regulars for a joke.

6. Hazmat calls Gunner and Me or for no apparent reason

7. Another bad witty remark from me to my team

8. I apparently lag, I get kicked, banned.

That's what happened to me

[That Infinity Guy 9]

While we are obviously biased a bit towards our members because we trust them more, we can't go against evidence. Staff handles unban requests, and they're known to be objective, so you should have no problem here - if the ban was indeed unjust. So, DEATH STRIKE won't be your jury and executioner, and his decisions, much like any of ours, can be overturned, in case there is a need for it. I assure you will have a just... trial, so to say, as long as you don't go picking unnecessary fights

The burden of proof is allways upon the accusatory party, and verdicts are given at the end of trials, not the beggining.

I appreciate the sentiment, and you will find the only fight fought, is the one for what is right.

[Ruby 9,039]

I am not qualified to make any more "official" statements.

[Se7en 10,762]

The burden of proof is always upon the accusatory party, and verdicts are given at the end of trials, not the beginning.

I appreciate the sentiment, and you will find the only fight fought, is the one for what is right.

Not if you're the Spanish justice system, (or the Spanish inquisition for that matter), I'm not saying that Lotus is like this, but in some cases you get punished and you have to supply evidence of your innocence.

[That Infinity Guy 9]

Not if you're the Spanish justice system, (or the Spanish inquisition for that matter), I'm not saying that Lotus is like this, but in some cases you get punished and you have to supply evidence of your innocence.

Then these forums have no right to exist. Such a system is ripe for abuse.

How would one predict that they would be accused of such a thing? The answer is they couldn't. Therefore preparing for an attack you have no idea is comming, when or where, is literally impossible.

This is why innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt came to exist in our civilized western society. If you're saying that's not how Lotus operates, than fair enough.

[Se7en 10,762]

Not if you're the Spanish justice system, (or the Spanish inquisition for that matter), I'm not saying that Lotus is like this, but in some cases you get punished and you have to supply evidence of your innocence.

[That Infinity Guy 9]

Not if you're the Spanish justice system, (or the Spanish inquisition for that matter), I'm not saying that Lotus is like this, but in some cases you get punished and you have to supply evidence of your innocence.

[Se7en 10,762]

Not if you're the Spanish justice system, (or the Spanish inquisition for that matter), I'm not saying that Lotus is like this, but in some cases you get punished and you have to supply evidence of your innocence.

ProTip, I live in Spain, and I was merely giving you an example where you as the person being accused of something have to provide evidence towards your innocence. Don't be a smart ass and try and twist my words. Thank you.

[That Infinity Guy 9]

ProTip, I live in Spain, and I was merely giving you an example where you as the person being accused of something have to provide evidence towards your innocence. Don't be a smart ass and try and twist my words. Thank you.

I did nothing of the sort.

[primarygunner 1]

sooo yeah all of this and i still don't know what i've done wrong, or how to fix this.

[Ghost_Jor 583]

Staff are probably talking about this in the staff lounge. It's probably best we all stop posting in the mean time so to avoid making this shit storm some sort of tornado and just wait for the staff to say something...

[bukowski 1,203]

Even with zoidberg gone from the servers, I have to agree that players (without naming any names) on East Coast have increased their absurdity and trolling over the past few months, and even though I wasn't on the server when this happened, I have to side with Death Strike's bans as he setting a good example that this behavior will no longer be tolerated.

[primarygunner 1]

Even with zoidberg gone from the servers, I have to agree that players (without naming any names) on East Coast have increased their absurdity and trolling over the past few months, and even though I wasn't on the server when this happened, I have to side with Death Strike's bans as he setting a good example that this behavior will no longer be tolerated.

normally when you make an example you ban people that are doing it not them an every one that happens to be close by.

[DEATH STRIKE 573]

sooo yeah all of this and i still don't know what i've done wrong, or how to fix this.

Well.... Bacon Bacon Steam ID STEAM_0:0:66578036 (is linked to your steam IDSTEAM_0:0:11380585)

As confirmed by Mana. Is your alt. And playing on 2fort East x33 last night after the ban and today.

[Nano 7,892]

God damn I walk away for 5 fucking hours.

Death, please post proof of your accusations. Admins are required to gather and keep evidence before taking action or bans will not be sustained.

EDIT: Ban removed from:

[ARA] Adolf Critler: STEAM_0:1:2388710

[ARA] Infinity: STEAM_0:1:32785608

Dr. Orbit: STEAM_0:0:51533843

DEATH has been an admin a long time and the rules have evolved over time. His judgement has always been outstanding.

A misunderstanding of new(ish) requirements is what led to this mistake. No further action will be taken with Death as he is aware of the updated requirements now and will be following them going forward.

Perm ban will stay in place for Primary Gunner and his alt. He will also be IP banned to prevent more alts. There was an open unban request and it hadn't even been 12 hours. There was no excuse to ban evade. Death made the final decision on the perm ban for evading as it was his original ban to begin with.

[That Infinity Guy 9]

God damn I walk away for 5 fucking hours.

Death, please post proof of your accusations. Admins are required to gather and keep evidence before taking action or bans will not be sustained.

EDIT: Ban removed from:

[ARA] Adolf Critler: STEAM_0:1:2388710

[ARA] Infinity: STEAM_0:1:32785608

Dr. Orbit: STEAM_0:0:51533843

DEATH has been an admin a long time and the rules have evolved over time. His judgement has always been outstanding.

A misunderstanding of new(ish) requirements is what led to this mistake. No further action will be taken with Death as he is aware of the updated requirements now and will be following them going forward.

Perm ban will stay in place for Primary Gunner and his alt. He will also be IP banned to prevent more alts. There was an open unban request and it hadn't even been 12 hours. There was no excuse to ban evade. Death made the final decision on the perm ban for evading as it was his original ban to begin with.

Thank you for your dedication, and time.

Edit: any idea when the lift will take affect, as it still says I am banned.

[primarygunner 1]

so let me get this strait i'm banned for evading a ban i never deserved...

[Ruby 9,039]

Edit: any idea when the lift will take affect, as it still says I am banned.

On map reset. (this might take a while on 24/7 maps - five or so hours at max)

so let me get this strait i'm banned for evading a ban i never deserved...

You're banned for ban evasion. Had you just waited for a few hours, you'd be unbanned as well.

[That Infinity Guy 9]

On map reset. (this might take a while on 24/7 maps - five or so hours at max)

You're banned for ban evasion. Had you just waited for a few hours, you'd be unbanned as well.

Thats what I thought too, however, the others are able to play on all Lotus Servers. Unless of course the unbann wasn't simultaneous, in which case, it's gonna be a long wait.