Worst Sniper Ever/icesage - Unprofessionalism By Admins

[Bootsy 1]

After deleting my topic with zero discussion, I must conclude that this is the least professional group of staff members that I have ever dealt with on Team Fortress 2. Not only are they inactive, it's become glaringly obvious that power abuse and corruption run rampant in this network.

This is a network that admins ban based on zero proof. This is a network where admins insult users. This is a network where admins delete topics that attempt to discuss their abuse of power. This network is a joke.

I have dealt with a number of networks over my three years of Team Fortress 2. I have been an admin on a number of them, some far larger than Lotus. I have never seen such rampant disregard for basic responsibility and maturity.

It is a wonder how the upper echelon maintains such a network with such a poor staff. Perhaps this is why the servers seem perpetually empty.

I once considered Lotus to be one of the few great networks. It should have been obvious to me that this is due to my lack of interaction with the admins. Perhaps Lotus' saving grace is that the admins are generally inactive; I suspect the network would be dead otherwise. I'm struck with a sense of disbelief - it's difficult to comprehend how a network I once considered to be the best has such utterly terrible staff.

The owner of this network should be embarrassed for allowing such childish, immature, and unprofessional people manage his empire.

[Hello Kitty 948]

I can not vouch for what you are talking about, but you could have Pm a staff member to let them know. Quite honestly, these admins and staff members are some of the hardest working people I have seen. I will make sure that a staff member sees this to deal with whatever your issue is.

[Bootsy 1]

This is a fantastic joke! I have never seen a Lotus admin in-game. They might be working hard... but doing what? I have seen the abuse of power quite a few times in the past several hours. This is my only interaction with Lotus admins, and the impression is not good.

I'm well aware what admins should and should not do. But here is what I suspect will happen to this thread:

It will be deleted or locked after an oh-so-witty retort. The admins do not allow any sort of criticism or questioning and they do not understand professionalism. I suspect many of these admins, judging by their post history, are teenagers.

If the admins are as hardworking as you state, fixing the forums would be very helpful. It slow, difficult to post, and there are frequent errors when posting.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Bootsy

[+Dr. Obvious 14,606]

Harsh words.

Just you know: i'm an admin and guess what? I've never seen you anywhere. You must not be on our servers at all and have all your knowledge from the trolling subsection of Reddit! =O

So, stupid bullshit and weird accusations aside: i have no idea what you're talking about, but if you'd provide more info - part of the forum you posted in, topic name would be nice, too - we could handle this in a civilised manner.
Maybe you posted it in the wrong part of the forums. Maybe you're just another alt of some troll we already banned and therefore everything you even try to do gets locked. I can't say what of it it was, but if you're willing to discuss this matter in a civilised way, i'd gladly try to find out what happened exactly.

[Hello Kitty 948]

Personally I have played with admins and they are constantly jumping servers to resolve problems. They only come if you type !calladmin in game or you could record demos, take screenshots and/or have people vouch for the trouble being caused(for ban request). Lastly, if there is admin abuse, you need to have evidence of abuse and post a ban request.

Edited December 14, 2013 by battleiguana

[Bootsy 1]

Harsh words.

Just you know: i'm an admin and guess what? I've never seen you anywhere. You must not be on our servers at all and have all your knowledge from the trolling subsection of Reddit! =O

So, stupid bullshit and weird accusations aside: i have no idea what you're talking about, but if you'd provide more info - part of the forum you posted in, topic name would be nice, too - we could handle this in a civilised manner.

Maybe you posted it in the wrong part of the forums. Maybe you're just another alt of some troll we already banned and therefore everything you even try to do gets locked. I can't say what of it it was, but if you're willing to discuss this matter in a civilised way, i'd gladly try to find out what happened exactly.

Check my playtime. It should be several weeks worth of playtime. If it's not, it reset. I played on Lotus exclusively for years.

I believe this is civilized - it was one of you that deleted my previous thread for no reason. You have earned this assessment. You may argue that painting you all with a broad brush is excessive, but I have not seen anything to convince me otherwise.

I am not a troll alt and I am insulted at such an insinuation. I think this simply adds to my conclusion that the lot of you are unprofessional.

However, since you asked: I posted in an unban request. The title is Worst. Sniper. Ever.

I should note that I am not banned and was posting on behalf of another requesting an explanation. Instead, it got removed very quickly.

Additionally, I should note that I have no in-game issues with admins due to the fact that I have never seen one.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Bootsy

[Kitten 1,813]

Bootsy,

I did not see your original post, but to clarify the situation with Ice Sage.

This is a network that admins ban based on zero proof.

Here was the proof for his first ban. He was unbanned and given a zero tolerance policy.

Here was the proof for his second and final ban that violated the policy.

This is a network where admins insult users.

We try to be open minded, fair, and polite - even though I, at least, can attest to daily being called a wide array of insults. If you have any particular instances of admins harassing or insulting someone, please feel free to share exactly what occurred.

This is a network where admins delete topics that attempt to discuss their abuse of power.

I'm sorry that you're upset by your post being deleted. However, in the face of multiple unban posts spammed on the forums:

http://forums.gamingterritory.com/topic/22029-unban-request-worst-sniper-ever/

http://forums.gamingterritory.com/topic/26329-not-an-unban-request/

http://forums.gamingterritory.com/topic/26402-i-cant-leave-gracefully/

ProLoser set the policy:

unban request denied. a third unban request/explanation ever of why you think the decision was unfair or incorrect will result in restricted forum posting privileges for spamming (which it is)

You're just a little late to the party. Free speech was certainly allowed. I believe you'll find the above links too much to read through in their entirety. The case has been discussed *at length* and the staff decision has been given. The topic is no longer open to discussion - no more unban requests.

[+Dr. Obvious 14,606]

....aaaand... Kitten was faster than me.

[Bootsy 1]

Bootsy,

I did not see your original post, but to clarify the situation with Ice Sage.

Here was the proof for his first ban. He was unbanned and given a zero tolerance policy.

Here was the proof for his second and final ban that violated the policy.

We try to be open minded, fair, and polite - even though I, at least, can attest to daily being called a wide array of insults. If you have any particular instances of admins harassing or insulting someone, please feel free to share exactly what occurred.

I'm sorry that you're upset by your post being deleted. However, in the face of multiple unban posts spammed on the forums:

http://forums.gamingterritory.com/topic/22029-unban-request-worst-sniper-ever/

http://forums.gamingterritory.com/topic/26329-not-an-unban-request/

http://forums.gamingterritory.com/topic/26402-i-cant-leave-gracefully/

ProLoser set the policy:

You're just a little late to the party. Free speech was certainly allowed. I believe you'll find the above links too much to read through in their entirety. The case has been discussed *at length* and the staff decision has been given. The topic is no longer open to discussion - no more unban requests.

I appreciate your reply, but I had a lengthy response prepared and it was denied as it was removed. As such, please forgive me for summarizing and being short. For the first ban, I question a few things. For example:

The demo he posted was used as fuel for said ban. This, of course, is questionable at its face - how can you use post-ban video as evidence for a ban? Second, the particular admin said the following:

You were trash talking on the mic

If you view the demo in question, Worst's voice is NOT present. Therefore, this is entirely fabricated and it makes me question what else is fabricated. I think it should be noted that the same admin is the primary actor in both of these situations and it makes me wonder if there is a vendetta. Additionally, I think it is interesting that this particular admin set the policy. Regardless, the first ban is approximately a year ago and I do not feel it is relevant to the discussion.

As for the second ban, even the poster acknowledges that

Obviously, these lack context

I question the ban because not only did an admin not witness these actions first hand, but is relying on others for second-hand information. Perhaps the "twitch.tv" bit is relevant, but the video is not posted and I do not believe it is against the rules to make mistakes.

I also take offense to this:

spammed on the forums

Perhaps my definition of "spamming" differs from that of the Lotus community, but I do not find three posts over a year to be spamming. I'd also like to note that Worst has not been banned for a full year, so I'm not sure how the first post is at all relevant. I'm also curious why his threads seem so quick to be locked, why my thread was deleted, and why discussion is not permitted in those threads.

I'd like to commend you for being cordial, but I'd also appreciate the above to be taken seriously. I'd also like to know how many of you have actually played with Worst and how much of this relies on speculation, because the ban seems heavily reliant on hearsay.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Bootsy

[Kitten 1,813]

I'm not going to discuss the reasons or details behind the first or second ban - because these matters are closed and not open to discussion.

(Plus, ban evasion on an alt is a final nail in the coffin, no matter what).

The decision is final.

I can tell you that there is no "vendetta," and that multiple admins were involved in the matter, myself included. I have played with Worst/IceSage in the past, and I also have dealt with many complaints regarding him. I can assure you it's not a matter that has been taken lightly.

By the way, since you mentioned it, here's a copy of the twitch video.

[Bootsy 1]

I'm not going to discuss the reasons or details behind the first or second ban - because these matters are closed and not open to discussion. (Plus, ban evasion on an alt is a final nail in the coffin, no matter what). The decision is final.

I can tell you that there is no "vendetta," and that multiple admins were involved in the matter, myself included. I have played with Worst/IceSage in the past, and I also have dealt with many complaints regarding him. It's not a matter that has been taken lightly.

Finally, since you mentioned it, here's a copy of the twitch video.

What is Worst's suspected alt? It is not clear to me on that thread. Again, to my knowledge, to our mutual friend's knowledge, and to his knowledge (I asked him personally), he does not have an alt. If Worst is such an issue, did you not witness these during your interaction with him?

Additionally, for the video, I'd like to note two things:

First, mistakes can be made.

Second, it seems very clear that this group is trolling - they even discuss it in voice chat on different ways to troll him

For example :

"You should type "pro" after every kill - that'll piss him off!" (approx 42 sec)

If the same standards were applied here that you are evidently applying to Worst - why is Worst the only one considered at-fault? Is trolling not against your rules also?

Edited December 14, 2013 by Bootsy

[JMaster299 654]

I posted a lengthy reply in the now deleted topic informing this guy of why the topic is not likely to be open to any more discussion and why the Staff is sticking with the ban. He obviously is not interested in facts and is in capable of listening to reason.

IceSage abused his donor privlages and that abuse was confirmed by a Staff member, which is higher then an Admin, via a demo that IceSage provided. In said demo IceSage was raging in chat and initiating votes against people for no valid reason. It does not matter if the votes go though, using donor privileges to start votes with out a valid reason was the "Zero Tolerance" violation that earned him a ban in the first place.

In one of IceSage's multiple ban requests a Staff member replied with a denial because the first offense was already a Zero Tolerance offense and that same staff member found another STEAM ID from a new F2P account that IceSage created in order to dodge his original ban. That ban dodging is another "Zero Tolerance" offense.

For reference here is the post from Staff about the ban dodging account: http://forums.gamingterritory.com/topic/27818-may-i-please-come-back/?p=195997

But none of that matters since as I said it's obvious the OP is unable to listen to reason. IceSage has been banned since September, so that makes me think that this guy is not just some "friend" who made a new forum account 3 months latter just to complain about this. In the interest of everyone's sanity I would suggest a lock and some sort of block on the forums. IceSage broke the rules, multiple times. It's not worth the time of anyone to keep arguing this point.

[Bootsy 1]

I posted a lengthy reply in the now deleted topic informing this guy of why the topic is not likely to be open to any more discussion and why the Staff is sticking with the ban. He obviously is not interested in facts and is in capable of listening to reason.

IceSage abused his donor privlages and that abuse was confirmed by a Staff member, which is higher then an Admin, via a demo that IceSage provided. In said demo IceSage was raging in chat and initiating votes against people for no valid reason. It does not matter if the votes go though, using donor privileges to start votes with out a valid reason was the "Zero Tolerance" violation that earned him a ban in the first place.

In one of IceSage's multiple ban requests a Staff member replied with a denial because the first offense was already a Zero Tolerance offense and that same staff member found another STEAM ID from a new F2P account that IceSage created in order to dodge his original ban. That ban dodging is another "Zero Tolerance" offense.

For reference here is the post from Staff about the ban dodging account: http://forums.gamingterritory.com/topic/27818-may-i-please-come-back/?p=195997

But none of that matters since as I said it's obvious the OP is unable to listen to reason. IceSage has been banned since September, so that makes me think that this guy is not just some "friend" who made a new forum account 3 months latter just to complain about this. In the interest of everyone's sanity I would suggest a lock and some sort of block on the forums. IceSage broke the rules, multiple times. It's not worth the time of anyone to keep arguing this point.

I have addressed all of these points and you are yet another reason why I consider you increasingly unprofessional. You obviously did not read anything I wrote.

I fully expect this topic to be locked and/or removed and I wouldn't be surprised to be banned. This is the nature of unprofessionalism.

However, since you keep accusing me of being an alt:

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198035813734/

STEAM_0:0:37774003

Also:

so that makes me think that this guy is not just some "friend" who made a new forum account 3 months latter just to complain about this

Bootsy

Member Since 26 Sep 2012

Edited December 14, 2013 by Bootsy

[Chez-Box 3,240]

This isn't in an unban forum, Which makes me so happy, because it can just get spammed like crazy, and hopefully not locked.
There is no way this guy isn't trolling us at this point.

1. You can't make an unban request for anybody but yourself, that's why your post was removed. Simple as that.
2. Worst has had his unban denied multiple times, and was told not to post another.
3. He was caught red handed multiple times abusing donor privileges, he was warned, and due process lead to a ban.
4. He evaded that ban, simply crushing any chance he would have had at an unban.

And now his minions are coming to troll our forums. Insulting our admins (myself), and our staff, who are all terrific and hardworking individuals. This wasn't arbitrary, this wasn't out of nowhere. Those threads regarding this ban are not exactly "light reading". This was handled professionally, and a decision was made. All of this nonsense is really driving the point home that it was the correct one. your post was removed because you posted an unban request for somebody else. That is simply not allowed, so it was removed. You then came here to bitch about a bunch of people who you don't know, and policies which you don't understand (and which don't affect you at all). This is getting to the point of ridiculousness, and I can't post here again, because it could cost me my sanity.

[Bootsy 1]

This isn't in an unban forum, Which makes me so happy, because it can just get spammed like crazy, and hopefully not locked.

There is no way this guy isn't trolling us at this point.

1. You can't make an unban request for anybody but yourself, that's why your post was removed. Simple as that.

2. Worst has had his unban denied multiple times, and was told not to post another.

3. He was caught red handed multiple times abusing donor privileges, he was warned, and due process lead to a ban.

4. He evaded that ban, simply crushing any chance he would have had at an unban.

And now his minions are coming to troll our forums. Insulting our admins (myself), and our staff, who are all terrific and hardworking individuals. This wasn't arbitrary, this wasn't out of nowhere. Those threads regarding this ban are not exactly "light reading". This was handled professionally, and a decision was made. All of this nonsense is really driving the point home that it was the correct one. your post was removed because you posted an unban request for somebody else. That is simply not allowed, so it was removed. You then came here to bitch about a bunch of people who you don't know, and policies which you don't understand (and which don't affect you at all). This is getting to the point of ridiculousness, and I can't post here again, because it could cost me my sanity.

1. You can't make an unban request for anybody but yourself, that's why your post was removed. Simple as that.

Where is that posted?

2. Worst has had his unban denied multiple times, and was told not to post another.

That does not mean it was unjust

3. He was caught red handed multiple times abusing donor privileges, he was warned, and due process lead to a ban.

No, he wasn't. Everything I've seen relies on speculation. There was NOT an admin present at the time and this has been made very clear.

4. He evaded that ban, simply crushing any chance he would have had at an unban.

Worst doesn't have an alt. Nobody has proved he DOES have an alt. This all relies, again, on speculation. I haven't even gotten a name of the suspected alt.

And now his minions are coming to troll our forums

It's disappointing that I have to inform you of this: just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it trolling.

Insulting our admins (myself)

Perhaps if you consider unprofessional to be an insult...but doesn't your little "spoiler" simply suggest that I am correct?

and our staff, who are all terrific and hardworking individuals. This wasn't arbitrary, this wasn't out of nowhere. Those threads regarding this ban are not exactly "light reading". This was handled professionally, and a decision was made. All of this nonsense is really driving the point home that it was the correct one. your post was removed because you posted an unban request for somebody else. That is simply not allowed, so it was removed. You then came here to bitch about a bunch of people who you don't know, and policies which you don't understand (and which don't affect you at all). This is getting to the point of ridiculousness, and I can't post here again, because it could cost me my sanity.

Feel welcome to post as much as you want. I'm interested in a response. I've been nothing but professional. I have not cursed. I have not been rude. I have not been aggressive. It was YOU that began to curse. It was YOU that posted immature memes. I did none of these things. If I am uninformed of policies, please inform me. I think you can see in the quote above that I am asking for this.

If anything, you should be embarrassed. I did nothing to warrant such hostility and such language. Admins should know better and treat people accordingly, and you've done nothing but prove me correct.

[Kitten 1,813]

Additionally, for the video, I'd like to note two things:

First, mistakes can be made.

Not on a zero tolerance policy. =)

Mana and I have been chatting and we've decided to unban you. Don't let it happen again, there is a zero tolerance for future re-occurrences.

Second, it seems very clear that this group is trolling - they even discuss it in voice chat on different ways to troll him

For example :

"You should type "pro" after every kill - that'll piss him off!" (approx 42 sec)

There's a difference between people joking around in their private mumble, and someone on a zero tolerance policy (who's been warned) abusing donor privileges.

Donor abuse is serious. It's even more serious when you've been warned you'll be permabanned if you do it.

[JMaster299 654]

Where is that posted?

That does not mean it was unjust

No, he wasn't. Everything I've seen relies on speculation. There was NOT an admin present at the time and this has been made very clear.

Worst doesn't have an alt. Nobody has proved he DOES have an alt. This all relies, again, on speculation. I haven't even gotten a name of the suspected alt.

It's disappointing that I have to inform you of this: just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it trolling.

Perhaps if you consider unprofessional to be an insult...but doesn't your little "spoiler" simply suggest that I am correct?

Feel welcome to post as much as you want. I'm interested in a response. I've been nothing but professional. I have not cursed. I have not been rude. I have not been aggressive. It was YOU that began to curse. It was YOU that posted immature memes. I did none of these things. If I am uninformed of policies, please inform me. I think you can see in the quote above that I am asking for this.

If anything, you should be embarrassed. I did nothing to warrant such hostility and such language. Admins should know better and treat people accordingly, and you've done nothing but prove me correct.

Not every single rule or policy is posted. You wanted to know why your post was deleted and now you know. Either accept it or move on.

His ban was justified, regardless if you agree with it or not. He accused someone of being invisible to a sentry and ubering himself, two hacks that do not even exist. The video clearly shows that was not the case. He initiated a vote kick and then a vote ban on the person who he claimed was hacking when the video shows he wasn't. You have been provided links to his other violations, so I'm not going to waste time posting them again. It is up to the Owner, Staff and Admins to decide what is and is not "justified". Your opinion is irrelevant because you don't run the servers or the clan. I don't either but as an active member of the Lotus community I stand behind the decision that was made here.

An Admin does not have to be present, ever, if there is other proof. The proof comes from the demos that IceSage provided and the video uploaded to youtube. In all of those cases IceSage was abusive in both his behavior towards other players and in terms of abusing his donor privileges to start votes against people who were not breaking the rules. You try to claim that the people in the one video were conspiring to troll IceSage, as if that some how makes IceSage's behavior ok. But the people in the video only started talking about trolling him AFTER he started being abusive. That does not make them right, but it also does not mean that IceSage was innocent either.

You keep claiming everyone is being unprofessional yet nothing you have done is "professional" either. You wanted to know why Worst is banned and you have now been told multiple times. You either accept that fact or you don't. Constantly spamming new threads and more posts at this point is trolling because you have received the only answer that you are going to receive. Yet you continue to whine and complain about how the Staff has not explained themselves to your satisfactions.

Well guess what, they don't HAVE to satisfy you.

Edited December 14, 2013 by JMaster299

[Bootsy 1]

Not on a zero tolerance policy. =)

There's a difference between people joking around in their private mumble, and someone on a zero tolerance policy (who's been warned) abusing donor privileges.

Donor abuse is serious. It's even more serious when you've been warned you'll be permabanned if you do it.

There is an amount of discretion involved in any sort of power. Zero tolerance is the same policy that gets kids expelled from school for finger guns. It seems foolish, doesn't it? Is it clear that a mistake was not made?

There may be a difference, but unless you have access to a vastly higher resolution: it's not clear they weren't trolling in chat as well. Not only that, but I'm still curious how the admin in ban #1 heard Worst "talking" since his demo did not include his own voice.

I don't dispute whether or not abuse should be met with consequences. I am disputing whether or not it's been proven Worst did, in fact, abuse. It does not seem that any admin witnessed this first hand. I've been an admin for other major networks bans did not occur unless there was an obvious case in a demo (hacking) or we witnessed it first hand. If other players complained, we would shadow that person discretely. It seems that none of this was done. Perhaps Lotus policies differ vastly, but it doesn't seem fair and, from my interactions with your fellow Lotus-ites, it seems there's quite a bit of hostility on this issue.

I think this is also a point where other things need to be questioned. What kind of server gives admin powers to donators in the first place? I've also noticed that Lotus is now charging for stats. If Lotus is so desperate for money, in what context does it make sense to alienate some of the most active players and all of their friends? We can argue Worst's situation for days, but I think I've been thoroughly convinced that Lotus has a whole host of immature admins and staff. I've watched whole networks die because of such issues. Regardless what you might think of my claim or what you might think of me, I hope you consider what I say.

I think it should be noted that you seem to be the exception, but that only goes so far.

Not every single rule or policy is posted. You wanted to know why your post was deleted and now you know. Either accept it or move on.

His ban was justified, regardless if you agree with it or not. He accused someone of being invisible to a sentry and ubering himself, two hacks that do not even exist. The video clearly shows that was not the case. He initiated a vote kick and then a vote ban on the person who he claimed was hacking when the video shows he wasn't. You have been provided links to his other violations, so I'm not going to waste time posting them again. It is up to the Owner, Staff and Admins to decide what is and is not "justified". Your opinion is irrelevant because you don't run the servers or the clan. I don't either but as an active member of the Lotus community I stand behind the decision that was made here.

An Admin does not have to be present, ever, if there is other proof. The proof comes from the demos that IceSage provided and the video uploaded to youtube. In all of those cases IceSage was abusive in both his behavior towards other players and in terms of abusing his donor privileges to start votes against people who were not breaking the rules. You try to claim that the people in the one video were conspiring to troll IceSage, as if that some how makes IceSage's behavior ok. But the people in the video only started talking about trolling him AFTER he started being abusive. That does not make them right, but it also does not mean that IceSage was innocent either.

You keep claiming everyone is being unprofessional yet nothing you have done is "professional" either. You wanted to know why Worst is banned and you have now been told multiple times. You either accept that fact or you don't. Constantly spamming new threads and more posts at this point is trolling because you have received the only answer that you are going to receive. Yet you continue to whine and complain about how the Staff has not explained themselves to your satisfactions.

Well guess what, they don't HAVE to satisfy you.

Well, one would wonder how you would know if these hacks exist or not... but I'll ignore that.

There are hacks that give uber - there are youtube videos of it. I've witnessed it. I've banned people for it. They may or may not be currently active, but they've existed previously. The video does not prove that Worst did not make a mistake.

I'm well aware that the owner hasn't been as active as he probably should be.... it's become abundantly clear as staff/admins/Lotus members post.

The rest of your post is very interesting as I'm not sure where it comes from - perhaps you're trying to groom yourself to be an admin, but I would assuredly never vote in your favor if you had applied on networks that I manage(d). Not only do you seem entirely too young, but you obviously don't understand the power and responsibility that comes with being an administrator of a major network. Your actions have consequences - more than a player's! If you ask those who are higher-ups in ANY network, they'll tell you that their job is thankless. You will get complaints. You will get challenged. You will get stressed out. This is why I always try to praise when it's warranted. I know the higher ups hear nothing but bad all day and all night.

A good network is able to convey a point professionally, maturely, and without malice. Aside from Kitten, this seems to be something that Lotus lacks entirely. While I'm aware that you're simply a clan member, you also have to remember you're a representative of that clan. As an admin or above? It matters much, much more.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Bootsy

[JMaster299 654]

The one youtube video alone is enough proof to show Worst abused is donor privlages. He initiated both a vote kick and a vote ban against the same person for hacking when it was obvious that he was not hacking. That, combined with his other recorded instances of initiating votes unjustly shows a pattern of him abusing his privileges as a done. That violation is treated as Zero Tolerance because donors in fact do NOT have any powers, like you are trying to claim. Anyone can initiate a vote against someone else, but donors are able to have that vote start with out 3 other people also initiating the vote along with him.

It is because of that privilege that donors are held to a higher standard. They are expected to use better discretion when it comes to starting votes against other players. As I said before it does NOT matter what those other players may have been saying in chat. Worst started the vote ban because he accused someone of hacking when they weren't. If they were being disruptive in chat he could have started a vote to mute them.

Lotus is also not charging for stats. So you are again making wild claims with no basis in facts. The owner, Mana, chose to stop paying to have the Lotus servers on gameME because it was too expensive. After talking with other users someone offered to help pay to have the stats re-enabled for our 32 player servers. No one is being charged anything. Someone who really liked having the stats offered to help cover the cost.

But again, I am writing all this to someone who clearly refuses to accept the answer they have been given. Just know that with every post you continue to make only serves to hurt your cause. Worst has asked on several occasions to be unbanned and all of them have been reviewed by staff and all have been denied. Nothing you say is going to make them change their mind and the more you say the more you are just going to them off.

[Kitten 1,813]

I don't dispute whether or not abuse should be met with consequences. I am disputing whether or not it's been proven Worst did, in fact, abuse.

The thing is, we're not.

I hope that we've been able to address some of your concerns. You were upset about your thread being deleted: it was explained that 1). you can't post unbans for other people (longstanding policy); 2) .it had already been made clear no more unban requests would be accepted for IceSage (and really, isn't 4 is enough). This is just policy. The issue was done, over, and decided before you came here, and it's final. As I think this has been thoroughly explained by this point, all I can say is I hope you and your friend are able to move on and integrate yourselves into another community; however, I don't think I or anyone else here can help you further.

[Bootsy 1]

The one youtube video alone is enough proof to show Worst abused is donor privlages. He initiated both a vote kick and a vote ban against the same person for hacking when it was obvious that he was not hacking. That, combined with his other recorded instances of initiating votes unjustly shows a pattern of him abusing his privileges as a done. That violation is treated as Zero Tolerance because donors in fact do NOT have any powers, like you are trying to claim. Anyone can initiate a vote against someone else, but donors are able to have that vote start with out 3 other people also initiating the vote along with him.

It is because of that privilege that donors are held to a higher standard. They are expected to use better discretion when it comes to starting votes against other players. As I said before it does NOT matter what those other players may have been saying in chat. Worst started the vote ban because he accused someone of hacking when they weren't. If they were being disruptive in chat he could have started a vote to mute them.

Lotus is also not charging for stats. So you are again making wild claims with no basis in facts. The owner, Mana, chose to stop paying to have the Lotus servers on gameME because it was too expensive. After talking with other users someone offered to help pay to have the stats re-enabled for our 32 player servers. No one is being charged anything. Someone who really liked having the stats offered to help cover the cost.

But again, I am writing all this to someone who clearly refuses to accept the answer they have been given. Just know that with every post you continue to make only serves to hurt your cause. Worst has asked on several occasions to be unbanned and all of them have been reviewed by staff and all have been denied. Nothing you say is going to make them change their mind and the more you say the more you are just going to them off.

And yet again, the Lotus clan further proves it's lack of professionalism. You continue to insult me! It seems you don't even understand my basic premise and want to perpetuate it!

Perhaps I was wrong about stats, I wouldn't know. I haven't played on Lotus since the Arena servers have been empty. This is the closest I could find:

http://www.gameme.com/docs/about/accounting

Perhaps this is an indication that Lotus needs a better layout with better access to stats - or at least more intuitive.

The thing is, we're not.

I hope that we've been able to address some of your concerns. You were upset about your thread being deleted: it was explained that 1). you can't post unbans for other people; 2) .it had already been made clear no more unban requests would be accepted for IceSage (and really, isn't 4 is enough). This is just policy. The issue was done, over, and decided before you came here, and it's final. As I think this has been thoroughly explained by this point, all I can say is I hope you and your friend are able to move on and integrate yourselves into another community; however, I don't think I or anyone else here can help you further.

If rules aren't posted, how can they be followed?

And not one of you has answered this simple question:

What is Worst's supposed alternate account?

You may PM it to me if you wish. I've already posted my information - feel free to contact me as well. Please PM me here first if you follow that route.

Again, if this is really all you have to offer.... I think it's time for some serious staff re-evaluations. Maybe being so large is unmanageable for you, but I would never tolerate this kind of behavior from my staff - they'd at least get a harsh verbal lashing or re-training.... assuming that training occurs on Lotus.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Bootsy

[JMaster299 654]

And yet again, the Lotus clan further proves it's lack of professionalism. You continue to insult me! It seems you don't even understand my basic premise and want to perpetuate it!

Perhaps I was wrong about stats, I wouldn't know. I haven't played on Lotus since the Arena servers have been empty. This is the closest I could find:

http://www.gameme.com/docs/about/accounting

Perhaps this is an indication that Lotus needs a better layout with better access to stats - or at least more intuitive.

If rules aren't posted, how can they be followed?

And not one of you has answered this simple question:

What is Worst's supposed alternate account?

You may PM it to me if you wish. I've already posted my information - feel free to contact me as well. Please PM me here first if you follow that route.

Again, if this is really all you have to offer.... I think it's time for some serious staff re-evaluations. Maybe being so large is unmanageable for you, but I would never tolerate this kind of behavior from my staff - they'd at least get a harsh verbal lashing or re-training.... assuming that training occurs on Lotus.

Please, tell me how I insulted you. I told you to get over it. I told you to move on. I pointed out the fact that your are unwilling to accept the answers you are given or in any way be reasonable. But at no time did I insult you.

Lotus owners and staff are under no obligation to explain it's self to you or anyone else. But you simply refuse to accept that. All you do is demand more proof when sufficient proof has already been provided. You then respond to every other person who responds and call them unprofessional. Who says we have to be professional? You may not like it, but no one here has to live up to your standards.

Edited December 14, 2013 by JMaster299

[Bootsy 1]

Please, tell me how I insulted you. I told you to get over it. I told you to move on. I pointed out the fact that your are unwilling to accept the answers you are given or in any way be reasonable. But at no time did I insult you.

Lotus owners and staff are under no obligation to explain it's self to you or anyone else. But you simply refuse to accept that. All you do is demand more proof when sufficient proof has already been provided. You then respond to every other person who responds and call them unprofessional. Who says we have to be professional? You may not like it, but no one here has to live up to your standards.

You implied I was illogical and that I was an alternate of Worst's and that I was "new"

But none of that matters since as I said it's obvious the OP is unable to listen to reason. IceSage has been banned since September, so that makes me think that this guy is not just some "friend" who made a new forum account 3 months latter just to complain about this.You keep claiming everyone is being unprofessional yet nothing you have done is "professional" either.

You either accept that fact or you don't. Constantly spamming new threads and more posts at this point is trolling because you have received the only answer that you are going to receive. Yet you continue to whine and complain about how the Staff has not explained themselves to your satisfactions.

You explicitly said I was spamming and a troll. You suggested that I was "factually" wrong. You said that I whine.

So you are again making wild claims with no basis in facts.

You explicitly claimed that my claims have no basis in fact..even though it is obvious you either haven't read or don't comprehend my claims.

I told you to get over it.

This is an inherently insulting statement

You may keep posting so that I can continue!

Who says we have to be professional? You may not like it, but no one here has to live up to your standards.

Oh, this is very true. You don't HAVE to be professional. But do you know what happens to networks (or any business) that is unprofessional and gets a bad reputation? Have you ever considered the consequences of the things you say, the things you do, and the way you behave?

Edited December 14, 2013 by Bootsy

[Ruby 9,039]

This has gone on for a bit too long now.

If you do not like our servers, our admins or our staff, nobody is forcing you to play on them.

Concerning IceSage, there were three unban requests on his behalf, and they were all turned down with reasonable explanations from ProLoser, who made the ban originally. Your topic was hidden because, firstly, we generally allow only one unban request per person (and the fact that IceSage was able to make three times that much only shows how much patience ProLoser had), secondly, we never allow unban requests from third parties and thirdly, everything you asked for in the unban request was already handled.

Concerning your view on our admins and staff, we maintain a high standard. There are 3894 bans in our database and every single one of them is backed up by demos, screenshots or other proof. Our admins are online every day, answering to calladmin calls and making sure that the servers run as smooth as possible. We are also in the process of adding more admins right now. You can see the list of admins in the "Ban Requests" section. Not to mention that you received lenghty answers from our "inactive" admins in this very thread.

ProLoser might reply to this thread later today to explain for the fourth time his ban on IceSage, but he does not have to.

If you continue making threads on IceSage or insulting our admins, recruits or members, your posting privileges could be limited and for further offenses I might do you a favor and absolve you of the pain that is playing on our servers.

*click*

[Nano 7,892]

I don't have anything new to add, thanks everyone for taking the time to dig all of that up to show Bootsy that he may not be getting all the facts from his friend IceSage.

The alt was mentioned here: http://forums.gamingterritory.com/topic/27818-may-i-please-come-back/#entry195997 . If you plug the steamid into a site like steamid.co.uk you can bring up the profile.

As to how we know it's an alt? It's because that account connected from the same physical location as IceSage's account. And first appeared on our servers 3 days after his ban, and a few hours after his unban request was denied.

Finally, I modified the title to make it easier for searching (both by the forums and by google). This thread is a great summary of the rest of the issue, so I want to be able to find it when the issue gets brought up in a few months or when IceSage decides to go yet again to Mana (which he is always welcome to do again, although we simply follow the policies he's already approved).

Fin.