Spy disguise

[Mr 8bit&3/4 115]

As I am a new recruit to Lotus, I wanted to think of something I could start a topic on. As spy has now become my favourite class (use to be soldier, still love the class). Something that has bugged me for a while, not only the use of disguising as a spy, but spychecking too. I cannot stress how irritating I find it when people constantly spy check, not with melee but firing at you, especially a heavy! In enemy territory!! Though, as spychecking is incredibly frequent, it makes disguises become pointless unless sapping a sentry, which can be hard with a vigilant eng, as well as other players. So, I want to know your opinions on spy disguises, and things you think could be changed about them to make them better, or that they dont need changing, and if people should use their brains as opposed to just spy checking everyone. >.<

I swear what makes being a spy difficult isnt the skill of backstabbing, but having to deal with your own bloody team.  

 

Also, hey lotus members.  

[Se7en 10,762]

Hey. Stick to Soldier.

[Chez-Box 3,240]

lolwut?  I'm just.... not even going to... yah

[Mr 8bit&3/4 115]

Nah, I enjoy spy more than anything other class. Go ahead Chez, not sure why you are reluctant to say anything. 

[luop90 4,400]

If you get good at any class you'll be OP. Spy is hard to get great at but the few that do... Look out is what I say. But than there's certain sollys who get over 200 points in under an hour... (I wonder who could possibly be that good)

[Jabberwock 273]

Lately, I've run into spies who're really good. The thing I noticed about them is they use the key binding stuff. One to hold a key and it'd set your deadringer on and off. Another would be using your sapper, then auto-switches you to a knife or gun for quick kill on engies. Practice your headshotting and use your ambassador. Good combo, even for killing the toughest of enemies.

[D-Bee 3,448]

Don't fall into the trap that most Spies do with the Deadringer. Keep in mind that your primary purpose is killing hard targets ie-stickie camping Demos, MVP's that are wasting your team, Medics, sentry guns, and the like. You are a ghost and should be invisible. That disguise is your insurance policy in case someone magically catches a glimpse of you. When you play Spy you should always ask yourself, "What is the biggest problem for my team right now?' and then eliminate it. After that, feel free to backstab random dudes.

 

The best Spies I've faced always kill me just before I'm about to do something really helpful for my team. Do I hear them? NO. Is there anyone around at all? NOPE. They backstab me and then the kill camera zooms in on NOTHING because they're already invisible and gone from the area.

[Mr 8bit&3/4 115]

Granted, but it isnt about just enemy spies, it is the constant spy checking of your own spies. Oh all the classes to spy check, I get irritated when heavies do it, they are too noisy. Not kidding, I have been spy checked when invisible, I mean, what the hell. Obviously not an enemy spy!! >.< 

 

That aside. Right now, I am trying to learn to strafe stab on walkway. Last night I tried it with pyros strafing and constantly attacking. I very much want to be the spy that counters pyros, so I can give them a piece of my mind. It will be a hard journey, but I love spy! It has a lot of diversity. I understand being invisible, that is one aspect, but I want people to be scared of facing me head on, hence wanting to be good with the ambassador and strafe stabbing. 

[DutchKev 425]

few things from both a spy point of view and a pyro point of view

 

NEVER disguise as either a medic or a scout. if you disguise as a scout then you're already dead, scouts do not move at the slow pace of a spy - unless - the scout is using a baby face blaster - but even then the chances of that are slim at best.

 

also disguising as a medic is also to obvious, medics heal and if you're running around holding the medi gun and someone is shouting "medic" and you're not healing, then again, you're dead.

 

IMO as spy, look at what class the opposing team have most of, for example dustbowl. on any 1 stage you can guarantee at least 3 demo and 2 solly and a pyro - so common sense says disguise as a demo, you'll blend in better than any medic or scout.

 

be care full disguising as an engineer - although you may go undetected to most, many pyros will flame an engi running towards a sentry to make sure you're not a spy (well, and sensible pyro would)

 

disguising as a pyro is a good way to deter other spies who may be lurking in the area. the last thing a spy wants to do is run into a pyro! but again this comes with a danger that most pryos run around with the flamethrower going, and if you're not flaming, you're suspected to be a spy

 

disguising as another spy imo is silly as everyone that i play with checks a spy out to make sure they are friendly

 

solly and heavy are a grey area imo to disguise as, as they're generally the slower classes so spies don't like slowly making their way around a map, but from what i've experienced, if you need a quick heal, calling medic as solly or heavy will almost guarantee you some healing

 

also a little tip as spy - when you're disguised as someone and you see a group of people and they're looking at you like you could be a threat - press B. this will "change" your current weapon to the players melee weapon and 'might' throw someone off your back for a while, enough to hide or make the move you want to.

 

also consider what type of 'spy' you want to be. do you want to be active? pro active? a lurker? a do-er? if you prefer to hide in the shadows and strike a lone player when he's not looking then i recommend using the cloak and dagger along with the stock knife. if you want to get out there and actually make a difference, then i would recommend the dead ringer - but be careful as the noise from uncloaking is ridiculously loud and in a built up area you'll be found in a matter of seconds, uncloak in a secluded area away from the action and slowly introduce yourself. uncloak behind an engineer or another player and 99% of the time you'll be dead before you can get a stab or a sap in.

 

choose your knife carefully as well

 

spi-cicle - good for heavy built up areas where pyros tend to dwell - believe me, that 2 second of flame resistance will help a lot more than you think. But then again the disadvantage is that even though its a silent stab - the trail of dead frozen bodies standing around will no doubt alert the team of your presence and they'll be looking for you.

 

stock knife / rose - always the best all rounder imo but the sound of a player being stabbed is loud enough in built up areas to alert people to you, but in secluded areas its perfect for picking off single players without to much trouble

 

big earner / kuani - a similar to the stock knife BUT you start with a huge disadvantage o only having 60 health. if you can successfully chain stab then you could effectively be overhealed to 150 for a while, but if you combine the big earner / kunai with the C&D then you're going to be wary of any damage that could be inflicted as 1 or 2 hits and your as good as dead.

 

your eternal reward / wanga prick / saharan spy (my main and favourite loadout) this is a very tricky knife / loadout to master. as you cannot disguise, you're reliant on that first successful backstab to get your disguise. once you get that initial stab then you're good to go and cause as much mayhem as you can. combine YER with the DR and after a fein death, you uncloak and still have your disguise. but one fail stab and your disguise is gone

and you're back to trying to get that first stab - and if you happen to fai stab in front of a sentry in open ground, then you can't disguise to avoid any more damage

 

gun choice.

 

stock revolver / big kill - imo the most reliable gun for spy. deals ample damage to opponents 

 

lestranger - good for the extra cloak buff you get as opposed to the other guns but woefully underpowered compared to the other guns available - but if you hit an enemy with the gun it fills your DR up slightly, so good for long distance shooting to get away from a sticky situation. but other than the extra cloak duration - i would stay away from it 

 

ambassador. tried and tested bread and butter of any spy (until recently that is) as the crit hit on headshot can take a razorback sniper down in 2 shots and most other classes can be dealt with in 3 as long as one shot is a successful headshot. over long distances the ambassador can be as lethal as the sniper rifle

 

enforcer - insanely overpowered gun for what it is - offers no great disadvantages and a lot of power per shot - imo an ameture gun

 

diamondback - before the update this gun was rarely used at all, but since the update imo this gun is just ridiculous and should be nerfed very quickly. 1 successful backstab grants the spy 1 crit shot - so you can imagine what can happen if you can muster 4 backstabs - yup, 4 crit shots.

 

sappers

 

the stock sapper imo is the best choice - it only takes 6 seconds to destroy a building as opposed to the 12 seconds it takes the red tape recorder completely deconstruct an object, blu team generally take 5-7 seconds to respawn, so sap and enemy teleporter at spawn and kill the engi, you'll find hes had more than enough time to die, respawn and remove the sapper before its done its job.

 

the only time i use the red tape recorder - and this is EXTREMELY rare i do, is when the enemy team have 3 sentries stacked together and your team is pushing with an uber. a level 3 sentry rocket can blast away a demo or heavy uber before they've had chance to inflict any damage, but with the red tape, as soon as you attach the sapper, the sentry IMMEDIATELY goes down to level 2. a level 2 sentry is easier to deal with without the rockets pushing you back.

 

quick swap key

 

i have quick swap enabled, so when i press Q it remembers the last weapon i used. when i respawn because i play saharan, i equip YER as weapon 1 and the sapper as weapon 2 as with YER, you're more likely to stab and sap that use your gun. if you don't use YER then you'd be better having your knife as weapon 1 and your gun as weapon 2.

 

sap and stab.

 

this rule really depends on the set up you use. as a saharan spy, when you stab someone you immediately take their disguise - so general rule of thumb is to stab then sap, but if you're using the vanilla method, then its better to sap then stab, because as soon as you stab the engie or someone within the guns rage, you're a dead man.

 

i also find good spies also make good pyros. as a spy, you yourself know which corners you prefer to hide and where the ammo supply may be - so as a pyro you would instinctively check the corner where you yourself would normally hide - same rule applies to any other pyro. 

 

spies who use the cloak and dagger generally tend to hide or lurk in corners waiting for their C&D to refill before moving onto the next corner to lurk in. imo these are the easiest spies to play against as they spend more time in corners than actually making any headway in the game - i tend not to worry about C&D spies, more dead ringer spies.

 

recently i've come across a lot of other spies choosing the spicicle, dead ringer and diamondback or the stock knife, dead ringer and ambassador.

 

the choice and combination can be altered depending on your playstyle. i myself use the saharan spy set (YER DR and lestranger) as i simply cannot play vanilla spy (choosing your own disguise). try them all out and see what works best for you but remember - what works on 1 map may not always work on another - so also choose the style depending on the map as well.

 

this is all my opinion and therefore should NOT be taken as gospel or the truth, other people will no doubt have opinions that differ from mine and may tell you i'm talking nonsense - but i've been playing spy for nearly 2 years now so have seen more then enough to warrant what im saying

[D-Bee 3,448]

I agree with pretty much everything DutchKev said, but I happen to use the Cloak and Dagger and it works just like the standard watch except you can stop and wait if you need to without decloaking. In pub games a lot of the time you'll get one team that just goes turtle. I can stand on top of a sentry and wait until the perfect moment to strike.

[Mr 8bit&3/4 115]

Okay, I dont choose one over the other, I use whatever I feel like or what may be needed depending on the situation or my confidence to deliver. I care more about being able to strafe stab or essentially get a stab off as fast as I can, in any possible situation. I understand to cover and hide, sure, only when I know I can handle myself whatever occurs. It will only make me deadly when I decided to be a ghost. With strafe stabbing etc, the knife isnt that important, but once again it depends on the situation. I could use the spicicle, but doesnt it make more sense to learn to better avoid the flames? That is why I tried practicing with pyros on walkway constantly attacking, as well as strafing, or increasing the speed etc (kinda why I love the map). It will be a long road, but I will get there. My aim is to hunt pyros for a reason, they are one of the biggest threats to a spy, so I want to learn to give them nightmares. I wouldnt say a spy is about being a ghost, it is about being a trickster, you cannot just expect the chance to come to you, or to even go to them, you have to make your enemies do exactly what you want them to. To me a good spy isnt just about being a ghost, but, you need them to know you are there, to distract them, to make them paranoid, and most of all to busy with you to bother your team. Going in and out like a ghost, is a good thing, depending on the situation, but ultimately you have to be the master of manipulation, the jester of the shadows, the freddy krueger of their nightmares. I refuse to learn to play spy and be scared or edgy about other classes, or to be timid enough to have to hide away, I want to be the spy that will make every enemy pee their pants enough that they are constantly looking over their shoulders to the point that an ally scout can blast them straight in the face. I may not be the best now, but I will determinedly achieve my goal. As it is horrendously fun! Mwahahahaha. 

[D-Bee 3,448]

I hear you. Listen, I'm in the same boat. Maybe we should get together and practice sometime. Send me a friend request on Steam and let's make this happen.

[luop90 4,400]

Cloak and dagger is mainly used for camping, but with it the only way to get charge back is to stand still or not be invisible. Unlike the default, cloak and dagger won't get charge from ammo. That's a main reason it isn't used in Highlander. Plus it only has 6 seconds of invisibility (unless you use a nice little trick that will give 4x that and you still move) and the default in is watch gives you 9 seconds.

And off topic, but with the cloak and dagger, the hiding places are normally really obvious. And people will accidentally get you via splash damage or like the other day, I was going for a demo and missed, and headshotted a fully cloaked spy that was hiding near a wall just behind the demo. Stuff like that happens. Dead ringer is nice because you take 90% less damage and nothing makes you visible. Taking damage, running into people, essentially anything but fire will not make you visible. (Even bleeding damage won't show for 6.5 seconds.)

[BloodRedWidow 3,508]

The Eternal Reward etc. is my fave set. The spies I've run into use this, and tend to be the more risk/reward type of player.

But I'm a medic so I automatically hate spies XD

[D-Bee 3,448]

http://youtu.be/j8HPUvvN_EM[youtube]

 

 

Just watch this. Frank West is an amazing Spy, and he knows what he's talking about.

[DEATH STRIKE 573]

Spies has can change disguises!!!! Not just turn invisible!!!  Ohhhh man this just opened up a whole new world for me!!!  

[fever 9,884]

On the servers I play on you see 20% of the time terrible spys who are comical rather than effective, 75% of the time it's just a regular spy...an inconvenience more than a threat and they don't really stop anyone from what they're doing, then 5% of the time you'll come across someone who does make you completely paranoid and starts killing you in really dangerous places (for a spy) but they're so good they cause havoc. I've seen one good spy effectively give the opposing team what feels like the advantage of an extra 3 players...you can feel the team struggling to cope with him.

[Chainmanner 154]

I think that the ability to disguise is good as it is. Random spy-checking is annoying as hell, yes, but other times it's caused by the player's own fault. Normally, I disguise as my victims, and when I'm not in the position to kill somebody but I must approach something using a certain disguise, I'd try to come in from a position that makes more sense to the enemies. For instance, if there is an engineer in a tunnel and I can't approach him without the risk of an enemy coming right up behind me, or coming through a teleporter, but there are other sentries in more important areas, I'd disguise as the engineer, switch my weapon to the knife and hit B, then quickly backstab the engineer while he's working on his sentry (assuming the sentry is facing away from him) and then rapidly place a sapper on the gun before it turns around and kills me. Up to the point where I kill the engineer and his gun, people would be somewhat convinced I'm not a spy.

 

That said, also adjust your disguise to the appropriate situation. When you're uncloaked and visible, ALWAYS come from an enemy's outgoing position (where the enemy would go through). Disguise when it is appropriate, like being a Sniper when you're on top of a high place or when you're farther behind enemy lines, and if you're in a tunnel with an enemy going toward you, take your shot at killing him instead of waiting for him to bump into you.

 

You're not limited to disguising as an enemy, keep in mind. You can use it to disguise as a Pyro and spy-check teammates, and in combination with the Dead Ringer you can charge, get hit and cloaked, and disguise as an enemy then.

[Mr 8bit&3/4 115]

I dont really mind what knife I use, though I sometimes like to change it up, just well, because. I care more about how to go about stabbing in any situation, difficult task, but that is what I find really fun. I love to think about it. I realised though, I think I am the kind of player that wants to be a trickster, than to stay invisible. Yesterday I had the best moment in tf2. As I have practiced strafe stabbing on the walkway map, and have been worried that it won't transfer to real play, as, well I tend to panic, but yesterday. I decided to play king of the hill, and just use my knife, I was actually doing alright, weirdly. I killed three red players, then went near their spawn, a medic out of nowhere killed me, then taunted. Later, a pyro was coming after me, I was able to stab him to death, then that medic came running in whilst I was fighting the pyro, I actually trickstabbed the medic, strafed and stabbed, I was surprised at myself. So basically, I strafed stabbed a medic, the jerk, and killed the pyro trying to kill me, and I survived, thanks to the med kit right near the fight. I have to say, I loved the feeling. Not because I got the stab off, but because it was that guy, oh, and he left afterwards.  

 

Okay, I get what you are all saying about disguises, but what about disguising as a scout? I really dont get it, unless I am missing something. This brought up a question for me, why exactly should the spy not be allowed to move like the scout? The point of a disguise is to well disguise, such slow movement speed is a massive give away. If they are willing to do that, then why slow you down when you are a heavy? Why are scouts the exception? I can imagine the first thing people would say, well they could use it to get to places faster etc, disguising as a heavy can sometimes get you ubered, but that is the aim of the game. Disguises could have been much more fun than what they are. 

 

Maybe I am coming from the perspective that I dont tend to be fooled by disguises. It can be really easy to tell, which is kind of boring, but I guess I just love mind games, and I feel the spy doesnt really do that, sure he can make people paranoid, but I feel that is more annoyance than actually messing with your head. Hell take "meet the spy" that is the kind of thing I mean, the trickster. 

 

Besides, either way I enjoy stabbing, disguises, revolver, whatever, I just want to stab.  

[Nano 7,892]

I like the rundown Dutch

One item to add.

 

On any map where you need a teleporter to make progress to the next point (most payloads, dustbowl, etc.) you can make the most impact for your team on defense by destroying the teleporter(s) entrance.  I used to main spy and now main engie.  Maybe 1 in 10 spies is smart enough to go to my spawn and sap/shoot it to kill it in about 3 seconds.  Unless I'm camping the tele exit, that tele entrance will be down.  This means as an engie I'll have to leave my setup and go put up another entrance.  Which of course, as a spy, is the perfect time to take down all my (now) unattended level 3 buildings, including the tele exit.

 

While this won't get you the most points on the board, I can't think of anything else a spy could do to make a more positive impact.  Adding 20 seconds of walking for each player is a huge disadvantage as it negates the increased time red usually has to wait to respawn (~20 secs vs 5 depending on # of players on), allowing defense to slowly push them back.  Without a safe place to retreat to, many players on blu will overextend then find themselves without anywhere safe to go before exploding into a hundred bits of flesh by defense.

 

99% of the time, works every time.

 

Similarly, as an engie, the best thing you can do to maximize your own team's chance of success is to keep a teleporter up.  It's more important in the long run to have a tele up but back a little, than one being destroyed every few minutes but at the front line.  Of course, most people just complain "tele is too far back" but never realize it hasn't gone down the whole game...

 

Source

[D-Bee 3,448]

I shouldn't say this, but I disguise as Scout all the time. Why? Because Spies DON'T disguise as Scout. Medic is really only useful right after you've killed a pocket Medic.

[Chainmanner 154]

I shouldn't say this, but I disguise as Scout all the time. Why? Because Spies DON'T disguise as Scout. Medic is really only useful right after you've killed a pocket Medic.

Good thinking, but the reason why they don't is because a Scout moves at 133% speed, while the Spy stays at 100%, making people know it's a Spy from a mile away.

[Mr 8bit&3/4 115]

Ah, an indirect good point was made, it can obviously be beneficial with the right plan to draw the enemy into being aware that you are a spy, in other words, to bait them. 

[DutchKev 425]

one thing i forgot to add that nano just reminded me about - a little tip i use that works 95% of the time is the good ol' telefrag.

 

sap the tele and stand on it. like i said 95% of the time the engi is dumb enough to be standing on on the teleporter when he's removing the sapper so as soon as he removes the sapper - you go through the teleporter telefragging him and in most cases leaving you free to sap everything of his within range.

 

like i said, it works 95% of the time - unless you have either an experienced engineer or an entire team camping the tele exit, like map 2, 2nd CP on dustbowl 

[Chainmanner 154]

Ah, an indirect good point was made, it can obviously be beneficial with the right plan to draw the enemy into being aware that you are a spy, in other words, to bait them. 

Yeah, and most enemies are stupid enough to chase a weaker one, such as a Spy. So I could lure a Pyro (an class that I hate very much when I'm up against it) to chase me into a hallway where two of my teammates are hiding in a flank spot ready to jump out at it.