So I played on lotus servers today after a long time...

[Skaruts 14]

...and it didn't take 5 seconds to remind me of the reasons why I had stopped playing here in the first place. Probably no one noticed my absence, but that's ok. At the time I felt like making a post, but then I wondered if it was worth it. I'm still not convinced it is...

 

For a long time I was a regular on here, but that was only because I used to play on the UKx33 server, where the teams were usually balanced, as there were usually enough regulars there to fill both teams. Then I started playing on 24 player servers, and I became really disappointed as time went by. Disappointed at the regulars, donors and lotus clan members, not the servers themselves. So I left, but I didn't clear my favorites list. And so I returned today (because I misclicked the list).

 

As soon as I connected to the server today it happened immediately. As I joined the red team, so too a lot of people stacked red, to the point where red had nearly double the players blu had. And even though I mentioned it on the chat, it still took them over a minute to realize it, and then the server evened out the teams moving other players. The result of this was that the red team was all over the blu base, and no one felt like anything was wrong. And, of course, when I pointed that out I got the usual answer "we're friends and want to play together". So, having fun together means ruining the fun for everyone else! I wonder why can't they have fun playing together against each other. I hate playing on Blu, yet I have more fun on blu with balanced teams than on red otherwise. So I disregarded that lame reasoning, but of course when I called them cowards, I was then the one at fault and my reasoning was invalid... I remember bringing the issue up before once or twice when a certain lotus member with a pocket medic were in the middle of it (and just as guilty), and I was ignored. The only thing I could do then to stop them all from keeping things unfair was to camp full time as pyro enough that they finally got bored of being highly unsuccessful and left. Good thing I was playing rock solid that day, it worked and it did feel good to nullify them.

 

I've seen this happen all too often, and like I mentioned already, not just with donors abusing the ability to change team at will, but also Lotus clan members. The problem isn't stacking, the problem is that people group up in the same team, resulting in a major unbalance and spend the day completely destroying the other team. When teams are scrambled, they just switch back and teams are the same again. I have no problem with spawn-camping though that tends to happen then. But I do have a problem with cowards who don't want to even out the teams when they're blatantly uneven (just like today). (I also have a problem with cowards who hold the spawn door open, and I've seen Lotus members doing this too. This is a different story, but it still has much to do with the example that's been given to people.)

 

When I say Lotus members, I'm including but not specifically addressing recruits. Great example you guys show, and great exploit you give to donors. It's not comparable to saigns by any means, but it still disgusts me. Always did, but more so when I started seeing the problems with it.

 

Sure I'm just one player out of too many, I won't make a difference if I leave the servers. But I leave you with something to think about. What kind of servers do you really want to run, servers for in house cowards, or servers where non-regulars can have some fun too. Greedy, or fair. You decide the people you want in there, and the example you want to give to them. I have more servers to choose from, so it doesn't make any difference to me. I do have better ping on yours, but... oh well.

 

Mind you that I'm not accusing every donor or every clan member of this, there are some clan members I respect and don't have any issues with. Same with donors. I just don't want to be pointing fingers.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Skaruts

[Minia 1,211]

Sorry to hear that you have had this troubling experience on lotus servers but I'm sure you understand that lotus can't just ban people for being "cowards" or remove their donor privileges. Whether donors or not, donating gives the player no advantage over other players they simply get fancy commands and immunity to autobalance. And if they're a group of donators sticking to one team then they have donated for that privilege, we cannot just ban them for doing so. It is upsetting, I know the feeling but if you don't like the game then there is no reason to stay, you are permitted to leave the game whenever you choose and besides, there are plenty of other lotusclan servers online in the UK and across the globe. Despite saying this, I play quite a large amount of my time on x33 UK servers and I do notice sometimes the uneffective of the autobalance but never have I experienced such an issue with the donors.

 

Anyways sure the staff will take in your post and react to it later, what is above is my opinion not lotus's opinion. 

 

Good luck

[luop90 4,400]

IF the teams were inbalanced, why didn't you try to call a votescramble? That feature exists for a reason. Also, the autobalance will only move players once they die, so if the teams are extremely out of balance, the second someone dies they will be moved. Mid-life autobalances isn't something that is included on the servers as it can make people angry.

 

Even though it says that donors are immune to team switches, they are not. Votescramble will switch everyone, even those with special privileges (yes, that includes donors). Donors can only switch teams once every 15 minutes, so if a votescramble is called, and they switch teams, simply call another one, and that will even it back out. It only takes 2-3 votes to initiate the vote, and only 50% vote has to be yes for it to pass. 

 

As for these "cowards" that are keeping the spawn door open, they are probably idle/afk and are simply doing to to troll/grief. They aren't cowards for holding the door open, they are doing it to purposefully let projectiles inside spawn to kill everyone. 

 

Even than, if you still don't like what the teams are, simply switch to a different server. Lotus has ~100 servers, and about 10 of them are x33. Servers can be found at www.lotusclan.com/servers 

If you don't like one server, simply join another. I play x33 servers all the time, and rarely do I find the "group of friends wanting to play with each other". It does happen, but its not a regular basis. If you switch to a different server, you will almost always have a different experience. There is only so much that a votescramble and autobalance can do, and as Minia said, you can't simply ban / kick people for wanting to play together or being a "coward" (unless they are purposefully trolling) Just because someone chooses to play differently than you do, doesn't mean that they can be kicked/banned. 

 

Any experience on servers will be different depending on who is on. Simply joining on a different time of day will give you a different group of players. One bad experience on one server at one specific time, is hardly how the server as a whole is. The donor effects are hardly off balance. Being immune to auto switching and being able to switch teams isn't OP as a votescramble will switch everyone, regardless on who they are. 

 

Anyway, I hope that you decide to play on another Lotus server, but if not, good luck.

[Se7en 10,762]

Cool story scooby.

[Ruby 9,039]

Hey,

we are not up to the point where we have enough donators that this is a major problem. (We also don't make any profit - 100% of donation money goes towards fuding the servers - so the benefits we are giving aren't so that we can have platinum plated walls in our houses, but that's a whole another story). Sometimes people want to play with their friends, and sometimes they do it in a way that teams end up really imbalanced, but most of the times that evens out relatively quickly too. In case it doesn't, it might be a good idea to just change servers.

I agree on some of your points - it's really a bit cheap to constantly switch teams just to be on the same team as your friends. I sometimes have more fun playing against people in Lotus than on the same team with them But people are all different and it's not something we can judge them for. There's also a 10 minute cooldown to the changemyteam command to prevent them from switching too often.

That said, nobody in Lotus is above the rules, so if you've seen someone exploiting or abusing glitches in the game, you can report them, provided you have proof. You can also do so in private to any staff member if you so desire. Just make sure that you didn't run into one of our weekly practices (they are on saturdays and sundays) as things get a bit weird at times like that

[fever 9,884]

As for these "cowards" that are keeping the spawn door open, they are probably idle/afk and are simply doing to to troll/grief. 

 

If you don't like one server, simply join another. I play x33 servers all the time, and rarely do I find the "group of friends wanting to play with each other".

 

The two recruits and staff member above have said pretty much what I was going to say, I'll just add this...

 

I play on UK x33 a lot and I have maybe seen the doors held open once or twice, and I put in more hours than most at TF2 at the moment (around 200 hours a month).

 

I see friends playing together a lot on UK 2Fort #2 during the day, but there are times when this means the other team gets rolled and there are also times when they get their arses kicked.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Fever

[Kerberos 3,170]

What server was this?

[Se7en 10,762]

What server was this?

24/7 2fort U. K. x24 #2

[Kerberos 3,170]

24/7 2fort U. K. x24 #2

I've seen what he is talking about happening. The problem is, half the server is donors. And all the donors are friends as regulars to the server, so they all play red forcibly. Stacking it. 

 

But then we have normal non donors trying to stack by observing and forcing autobalance on unlucky reds who aren't donors, which i kick them for, as they are essentially forcing a donor perk on them selfs and punishing others for it. 

 

TL;DR

It is pretty bad on the server

[LjubicaZubica 5,610]

Hm, but that can´t last long.

Eventually player dies and gets balanced in other team or someone joins server and joins other team. It can happen if lots of donors are on server. Does it last long time? Nope, it gets balanced.

 

Same as spawn camping. In my experience game goes back to normal. Someone gets balanced, someone rage quits, someone joins. I never saw 24/7 spawn camping. 

It is hard to get perfectly balanced teams. Sometimes it happens so all action is on the bridge. Sometimes one team is more in defense while other team is pushing and attacking. Eventually more aggressive team will get to their spawn and spawn camp till intel captures. Giving ban for that or accusing for being coward isn´t fair.

Usually problem lies in unbalanced classes. If you have team with weak classes, of course you´ll get overrun.

 

And for once I would like to see that red team spawn camping blu lol Every time I join they just sit in base not even attacking a bridge >< Pretty much boring gameplay for me, so I´m rather on x33

[Skaruts 14]

Indeed Kerberos was there and he saw it...

 

Bear in mind, Zubica, that I use the term "balanced teams" loosely. You can interpret it as meaning "balanced enough that the weaker team can still stand up most of the time as long as they're not stacking support classes". Perfectly balanced is nigh impossible, and unbalanced teams will happen randomly often too. But I'm talking about people deliberately keeping them unbalanced.

 

And indeed, it can also happen that the "friends" team only becomes a boring camping ground, though that doesn't bother me so much, as it's just a team (or both) being boring. At the very least no one is being mercilessly crushed repeatedly.

 

And I'm not proposing bans. I'm not proposing anything, actually, and I wouldn't really want people banned for this. I'm just bringing the issue up because I've seen it happen too often, and I did see it happen for a long time in a row many times (today it was for perhaps an hour, until I left because I voted for scramble and the vote was won, but the teams remained exactly the same, except for one player who immediately switched to red anyway) and it was the reason why I felt like playing elsewhere.

 

I've been absent for maybe almost a year, so things may have changed - less donors as mmph mentioned, maybe - so it may not be as bad now as it was then, and I just had an unfortunate come back. I still find it a bit of a strange coincidence.

 

And by the way, since I'm here at this particular time, a late and totally on-topic Happy New Year to all of you can't go amiss. (or happy new beer, or happy noob year, whatever rolls better in your general direction )

Edited January 15, 2014 by Skaruts

[Sphagnum Peat Moss 748]

Do you really think that people playing with their friends is something that is unique to Lotus servers?  If so, you're wrong.  Playing with friends is the reason I donate to all of the servers I do (not just Lotus).  If any of them prevented anyone from playing with their friends, they'd probably lose half their donors.  This is TEAM Fortress, so I don't know why you'd ever expect that going solo would or should be as productive as going as a team.  Aside from that, I don't know what exactly you think Lotus or any other clans that host servers can do about it.  If red team has 12 players and blue team has 12 players, they are balanced and there is nothing Lotus or anyone else can do to force whoever is playing to be of equal skill level or even class distribution.  It would be futile to try, since these imbalance situations rarely last longer than a round or two consecutively.  You even said yourself that you're not proposing anything, so what is the point of all this?  If it's just to complain, then my response as a regular player on Lotus servers is this:  I get accused of team stacking all the time just because I usually play with ONE other person (my fiance), even though we often play opposing teams too.  Sorry, but if you don't like me playing on the same team as the person who's wearing the ring I gave them, then tough shit for you.  If somebody wants to play a game with their friend(s), they shouldn't have to stop and consider the delicate feelings of some random internet person who doesn't have friends to play with.  If you do have friends to play with, then maybe consider making your own server or donating to the one that someone else pays for you to play on.

[fever 9,884]

I joined the server in question the other day half way through a game. They had no engie on blue, so I went engie. The game lasted about 5 minutes if that because blue got battered. I switched to soldier as there was a competent medic there who I recognised. We easily beat the same red team in around fifteen minutes. So I don't believe there is an issue with that server as I've seen the regulars win and get beaten regularly. You're worrying about a problem which doesn't really exist.

You'll never balance the teams other than having an equal (or thereabouts) number of players. The bigger issue is people playing the classes their team doesn't need at that moment in time, like excessive numbers of snipers or spy's. There is no way you will balance skill and experience on blue and red, even with balancing etc, because of the ability for a person to sit in spec and wait for a slot on the team they prefer to come up or donor privileges. People will always play with who they want to play with or on the team they're prefer. I'm with Darwin...sometimes it's good to play against your friends and show them some "love"

Edited January 15, 2014 by Fever

[LjubicaZubica 5,610]

I´ve seen things you people wouldn´t believe. Weak, new players pulling together as a team and winning. Attack soliders on fire falling from batelments. I watched little engies working together and pushing with sentries. I saw medic giving uber to heavy and cleaning the bridge. All those moments will be lost in time, like spies in fire. Time to leave this thread.

[Nano 7,892]

I say this not discounting any concerns voiced above...

this is why some people hate 2fort. it's one of two tf2 maps where they are designed to go on forever instead of actually accomplishing the objective. what else would you do other than fuck around if you aren't going to get the Intel?

not putting down that play style, merely pointing out that most maps don't allow the players not attempting to win to not worry about losing.

[Skaruts 14]

Do you really think that people playing with their friends is something that is unique to Lotus servers?  If so, you're wrong.

 

I would assume not. But I haven't noticed this problem anywhere else so far in all my years of TF2. Unbalanced teams happen all the time, but not deliberately.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Skaruts

[Harlequin 2,975]

I can see your points, and the frustration comming with it.

 

but, with all respect, you just see your side.

you have no clue about who is befriended with whom on the server you are on.

 

whenever I join the 2fort UK server, and there are +4 people of my friends-list on, I usualy have to decide wich team am I join, because they are already split up.

there is a small group of people from about 3-4 guys who alwayss join the same team, but the "friendzone" is much bigger then those few people you recognize as "friendly stacking".

I got called a stacker several times.... no matter on WHAT team I join.

 

well, that's 2fort. not a matter of a "lotus related problem".

you wanna play 2fort? deal with it

 

 

but yes, if we could get the balance / scrambling to be a bit more aggressive, it would not hurt and be alot more fun.

(in regards to what the topic creater originally wanted to say: a stacked up team of 5-10 ppl aint fun)

[fever 9,884]

I haven't noticed this problem anywhere else so far in all my years of TF2

 

In the bad old days I saw team stacking a lot on Skial and Saigns so if you think that this doesn't happen anywhere other than Lotus then you're either not playing in other communities, have blinkered vision or are deluded.

I got called a stacker several times.... no matter on WHAT team I join.

 

I go on a random Lotus server, I get asked to stop using some weapons, I get told I'm a hacker...but when I play with my friends I get told I can't hit sh!t.  I share your pain.  Go figure XD

Edited January 15, 2014 by Fever

[Ruigi 100]

I click random. Because I'm awesome.

[Jakoby 38]

 

Yeah it does get really bad at times, but hey, you can't really stop people wanting to play with their friends.

[Asjo 90]

Ljub, I love how you're starting to sound like the wise elderly shaman of the tribe

 

Stacking on my server, the x33 UK 2Fort server, is something people complain about more rarely these days. Many of the social regulars who used to bring joy to the server have sought other pastures and only visit it occasionally. They usually liked being in the same team because in one team there's be happy people singing and laughing, whereas the other team would be dead quiet, with no interaction. I think the only thing that could bring about the constant stacking complaints again would be Ljubica tiring of MvsM. Everyone who knows her, meaning the regulars, want to be in her team because she's good company and a famous singer.

 

I do want to point out one false assumption people make. Several people have indicated that if a few good players want to play together and use powerful combos like soldier/medic that they will necessary have to stack the teams. I think it's easy for a few players to join the weaker team if they like a challenge. Personally, if I've been able run once through the enemy base without dying, I start itching to switch teams. I played with my best friend Aleci on the server the other day, and even though we are both noobs, we realized that a soldier/medic combo of two guys talking to each other on Skype would be too powerful to leave in the hands of the dominant team. So, we always joined the team that was under pressure, and managed to even things out. In the 2-3 hours we played, we were separated for no more than 25 minutes (which we needed, since Aleci enjoys killing me as much as he enjoys getting me killed), despite being switched apart by autobalance and teams being switched at the end of the round. That includes the time where we had to switch to the other team because ours suddenly became too strong. Often when we play, Aleci ends up getting frustrating because of spies, campers or something like that. However, for the duration we played, Aleci hardly complained at all and we had a blast. What was awesome was that since our team was hardly killing anything (for most of the time, at least), we were getting plenty of action. We had a constant barrage of opponents trying to break the base and never less than four opponents waiting when we entered the bridge. So, we never really wasted a kritz ...

Edited January 20, 2014 by Asjo

[fever 9,884]

I do want to point out one false assumption people make. Several people have indicated that if a few good players want to play together and use powerful combos like soldier/medic that they will necessary have to stack the teams. I think it's easy for a few players to join the weaker team if they like a challenge. Personally, if I've been able run once through the enemy base without dying, I start itching to switch teams. I played with my best friend Aleci on the server the other day, and even though we are both noobs, we realized that a soldier/medic combo of two guys talking to each other on Skype would be too powerful to leave in the hands of the dominant team. So, we always joined the team that was under pressure, and managed to even things out. In the 2-3 hours we played, we were separated for no more than 25 minutes (which we needed, since Aleci enjoys killing me as much as he enjoys getting me killed), despite being switched apart by autobalance and teams being switched at the end of the round. That includes the time where we had to switch to the other team because ours suddenly became too strong. Often when we play, Aleci ends up getting frustrating because of spies, campers or something like that. However, for the duration we played, Aleci hardly complained at all and we had a blast. What was awesome was that since our team was hardly killing anything (for most of the time, at least), we were getting plenty of action. We had a constant barrage of opponents trying to break the base and never less than four opponents waiting when we entered the bridge. So, we never really wasted a kritz ...

 

+1

[D-Bee 3,448]

Are you sure these were Lotus members and recruits you're talking about? Every Lotus person I've played with has been sweet as pie and a decent player. You could switch servers like everyone suggests, but I'd say stick around and befriend these people instead. Get some of them on your side. I play against Lotus members and I love it! It's playing against non-Lotus people that can be boring because they die so easily. So...make friends! At the very least you can laugh together about how bad your team sucks.

[Se7en 10,762]

Are you sure these were Lotus members and recruits you're talking about? Every Lotus person I've played with has been sweet as pie and a decent player. You could switch servers like everyone suggests, but I'd say stick around and befriend these people instead. Get some of them on your side. I play against Lotus members and I love it! It's playing against non-Lotus people that can be boring because they die so easily. So...make friends! At the very least you can laugh together about how bad your team sucks.

Yes they were/are.

[D-Bee 3,448]

Yes they were/are.

 

Who are these miscreants giving Lotus a bad name?