Soldier Update

[Thrillhouse 1]

Would you fucking stop derailing every god damned thread on the forums and turning it into some dick-wagging flamefest?

THIS. THIS. THIS. THIS. THIS. THIS.

[You suck and have no life 203]

THIS. THIS. THIS. THIS. THIS. THIS.

I actually had a worth discussion with Dave. It sure is more interesting than Miyari yelling.

[Thrillhouse 1]

The point is that every time I come on here to read a thread it gets hijacked about 10 posts in by someone talking about the following:

1.) Their workout routine

2.) Their chemical engineering degree

3.) Their Kill:Death Ratio

4.) How badass they are

5.) How much <insert name here> sucks

I can't imagine who would do such a thing.

By the way, the RPG idea is interesting but I don't feel it would change the class enough. Valve has came a long way with their unlock system. The first class to receive an unlock was medic...and nothing changed about how you play medic from that. With their spy and sniper update they've (somewhat) changed the way you potentially could play the class. I feel that's the direction they're going to head with the soldier, engineer, and demoman updates. I don't think the unlock will be a rocket launcher of any kind, nor do I feel it will be a machine gun. I'm really not sure what they'll do. Of course this is all pure speculation and I'll probably be proved wrong about the class unlocks.

[Stabby McKnife-Face 17]

Heavies trump spies? I think you've got that backward, my friend. If there are heavies to be killed, spies and snipers are the two classes most able to do it.

I'd like think I'm not a retarded spy, but while I do manage to wreck many a heavy, I've also been brutally dominated by some. It comes down to the situation and skill of said heavy.

[FunkyFresh 68]

That is very true!

[kuttlewug 28]

This thread of been so derailed from its purpose what was it about again..? oh yes soldier update! I'm again picturing a tank for him to use..lol

[Melissia 7]

Yes, I find backstabbing funkyfresh to be extremely rewarding-- because he's fucking HARD to backstab. It's a challenge thing.

Here's an idea for a soldier's shotgun replacement: A sawed off shotgun with ~2x as many pellets (and thus that much more damage potential), but far more scatter and damage diminishes at medium and long range faster than the normal shotgun.

Also, suckylife's objection to my idea for a rocket launcher alternative is silly. One does not fight solo against the enemy team, nor should any weapon allow you to do so. You're not the only one damaging them-- if you hit a bunch of enemeis at once, they'll either already be damaged and possibly die from the large splash damage, or they'll be weakened by the damage, disrupted by the knockback, and ready for your team to kill and give you a lot of assists.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Melissia

[You suck and have no life 203]

Also, suckylife's objection to my idea for a rocket launcher alternative is silly. One does not fight solo against the enemy team, nor should any weapon allow you to do so. You're not the only one damaging them-- if you hit a bunch of enemeis at once, they'll either already be damaged and possibly die from the large splash damage, or they'll be weakened by the damage, disrupted by the knockback, and ready for your team to kill and give you a lot of assists.

Except one clip of just about ANY weapon in TF2 is sufficient to kill a FULL HP opponent (except maybe the scout twin shotty). Just because the game name is Team fortress 2, doesnt mean you have to simultaneously hold all your team members cocks in order to kill someone. You want this to apply to a spy's back stab too? You of all people loolz. Your views are delusional and thank got you dont work for Valve.

[Melissia 7]

And a direct hit with a rocket can kill lower HP classes on random damage servers. The point of this weapon is that it's hard to dodge and it hits a lot of enemies due to its high radius, also doing some good disruption, knocking people around. Just the same as the point of the backburner is to have a weapon great for ambushing, the point of the hundsman is to have a weapon which is quicker to fire. The point of the FaN is utility (disruption+extra jump). The kritzkrieg doesn't serve the same function as the medigun uber, the natascha isn't a flat out upgrade to the minigun, and so on. These weapons are intended for different playstyles, they are not a sheer upgrade to the weapon, like your compeltely and utterly moronic suggestion for autocrit rockets. Two crit rockets will decimate almost entire teams in the hands of a skilled user, causing a soldier to be the only class that's ever played because it's too fucking strong. That'd be stupid.

The large explosion, high travel speed rocket will not decimate entire teams, but it WILL mean that, when properly utilized, it will be extremely deadly.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Melissia

[Miyari 33]

Dave, I think you got beat by the talking most in the game award. At least you "try" to be helpful. The other person just talks about everything that comes to her mind. Like the fact that she cant accept some times the opponent gets a lucky shot and she ends up yelling about it over and over. Variability and probability aren't words in her dictionary.

Oh, because your ignorant, sexist blathering, insulting and oh-so-intelligent fart noises over the mic are definitely a far greater contribution to TF2's voice comm. Also, you've never even complained about getting killed. I forget. You must be right. Just fucking leave already, or at least stop trolling the servers/forums. I can't even begin to understand why Mana keeps you around, or why you're even still a recruit, for that matter. It's a good thing you think so highly of yourself, because nobody else does.

[kuttlewug 28]

Here's an idea for a soldier's shotgun replacement: A sawed off shotgun with ~2x as many pellets (and thus that much more damage potential), but far more scatter and damage diminishes at medium and long range faster than the normal shotgun.

I'm thinking double barrel shotgun? Just because it would look cooler. And an alternate for the rocket launcher would be a rocket launcher with a secondary fire that shoots all four rockets at once but there would be a slower reload and no crit (if you unload your whole clip you won't need a crit anyway.) You could stop a heavy dead in his tracks or take a sentry out in one go.

[Game AI Dev (Dave) 17]

Just the same as the point of the backburner is to have a weapon great for ambushing, the point of the hundsman is to have a weapon which is quicker to fire. The point of the FaN is utility (disruption+extra jump). The kritzkrieg doesn't serve the same function as the medigun uber, the natascha isn't a flat out upgrade to the minigun, and so on. These weapons are intended for different playstyles, they are not a sheer upgrade to the weapon...

Ding! That's pretty much it. The best way to keep the balance that I spoke of earlier is to not make something better but to make something different. The scout's "bonk" ability is another one you didn't mention. It makes the scout a viable contributor on defense by slowing down ubers, for example.

A twist to this soldier thing is to have a concussion weapon similar to the a combination of the scout's baseball (less duration, however) and the pyro's airblast. Have a rocket that, on contact emits a pulse that kinda pushes everyone away slightly. The disorienting effect would almost be automatic to the player so you don't really need to exacerbate it much artificially for more than a second. This would have the effect of changing snipers sight lines, knocking engies away from their gear slightly (coordinate with spies sapping?), pushing medics away from their buddy during a heal or an uber, etc. There would be no damage done, however. Again, this is an example of introducing a weapon/ability that causes the player to ask "how could I use this to my team's advantage?".

[Spartan_0214 18]

I'm thinking double barrel shotgun? Just because it would look cooler. And an alternate for the rocket launcher would be a rocket launcher with a secondary fire that shoots all four rockets at once but there would be a slower reload and no crit (if you unload your whole clip you won't need a crit anyway.) You could stop a heavy dead in his tracks or take a sentry out in one go.

I think something along the lines of the Rocket Launcher in UT. Hold down the right mouse button to queue up rockets. It takes a while for the rockets to load, but they all fire at once when you press the left mouse button.

[Moby 24]

BFG 9000, IMO.

[You suck and have no life 203]

Oh, because your ignorant, sexist blathering, insulting and oh-so-intelligent fart noises over the mic are definitely a far greater contribution to TF2's voice comm. Also, you've never even complained about getting killed. I forget. You must be right. Just fucking leave already, or at least stop trolling the servers/forums. I can't even begin to understand why Mana keeps you around, or why you're even still a recruit, for that matter. It's a good thing you think so highly of yourself, because nobody else does.

u mad? 1% intentional trolling > 99% blatant chattering

And a direct hit with a rocket can kill lower HP classes on random damage servers. The point of this weapon is that it's hard to dodge and it hits a lot of enemies due to its high radius, also doing some good disruption, knocking people around. Just the same as the point of the backburner is to have a weapon great for ambushing, the point of the hundsman is to have a weapon which is quicker to fire. The point of the FaN is utility (disruption+extra jump). The kritzkrieg doesn't serve the same function as the medigun uber, the natascha isn't a flat out upgrade to the minigun, and so on. These weapons are intended for different playstyles, they are not a sheer upgrade to the weapon, like your compeltely and utterly moronic suggestion for autocrit rockets. Two crit rockets will decimate almost entire teams in the hands of a skilled user, causing a soldier to be the only class that's ever played because it's too fucking strong. That'd be stupid.

The large explosion, high travel speed rocket will not decimate entire teams, but it WILL mean that, when properly utilized, it will be extremely deadly.

I said I would trade the current rocket for the lower ammo crit rocket. Which is true, given the option, I would trade for it! Since Valve doesnt read this forum, and its all speculation, it really doesnt matter what we think.

Ding! That's pretty much it. The best way to keep the balance that I spoke of earlier is to not make something better but to make something different. The scout's "bonk" ability is another one you didn't mention. It makes the scout a viable contributor on defense by slowing down ubers, for example.

A twist to this soldier thing is to have a concussion weapon similar to the a combination of the scout's baseball (less duration, however) and the pyro's airblast. Have a rocket that, on contact emits a pulse that kinda pushes everyone away slightly. The disorienting effect would almost be automatic to the player so you don't really need to exacerbate it much artificially for more than a second. This would have the effect of changing snipers sight lines, knocking engies away from their gear slightly (coordinate with spies sapping?), pushing medics away from their buddy during a heal or an uber, etc. There would be no damage done, however. Again, this is an example of introducing a weapon/ability that causes the player to ask "how could I use this to my team's advantage?".

Since we both play on dustbowl, ill refer to this map only. Scouts may be "viable" vs ubers, but they suck vs everything else. So why would you play a scout if a demoman can do the same vs an uber, but still be effective at killing everyone else? Why not get the best of both worlds?

[h3gi 5]

I think something along the lines of the Rocket Launcher in UT. Hold down the right mouse button to queue up rockets. It takes a while for the rockets to load, but they all fire at once when you press the left mouse button.

I first post that idea then edited it, because I realized it would be massively imbalanced. Being able to fire three rockets at once in spread, spiral, or grenade pattern would be massively powerful, being able to take out a level 3 sentry with no problem for example. Then you have the whole rocket jumping balancing issue.

Now that I think about it, they did say they were going to make the Soldier more uber-friendly, didn't they? And remembering back to the initial revelation of stat-modified weapon drops, most of the found attributes already existed, like Slow Down Opponents on Hit from Natascha or Gain HP upon Hit from Blutsauger. But there was one that didn't exist in any weapon yet, Lose HP upon Hit. In a tradeoff for HP, the new rocket launcher could be more deadly/useful, and would help charge Ubers faster too boot.

Edited June 15, 2009 by h3gi

[Melissia 7]

What you would trade it for is irrelevant, suckylife. You have shown yourself to be anything but the most intelligent person in this thread when it comes to making balance decisions.

[You suck and have no life 203]

I look at data. No data exists therefore no decisions can be made. Its all speculation. Valve doesn't make decisions based on pure theory, they make tweaks and run simulation. With out the exactly damage, the distribution of damage variability, the radius of blast, the reload time, no conclusions can be made. So your point is moot.

[Spartan_0214 18]

I first post that idea then edited it, because I realized it would be massively imbalanced. Being able to fire three rockets at once in spread, spiral, or grenade pattern would be massively powerful, being able to take out a level 3 sentry with no problem for example. Then you have the whole rocket jumping balancing issue.

Now that I think about it, they did say they were going to make the Soldier more uber-friendly, didn't they? And remembering back to the initial revelation of stat-modified weapon drops, most of the found attributes already existed, like Slow Down Opponents on Hit from Natascha or Gain HP upon Hit from Blutsauger. But there was one that didn't exist in any weapon yet, Lose HP upon Hit. In a tradeoff for HP, the new rocket launcher could be more deadly/useful, and would help charge Ubers faster too boot.

It's actually not unbalanced. If it takes as long to load the rockets into the new rocket launcher as it does to fire and reload one of the old rockets, it's quite balanced. It'd be like delivering a stream of rockets all at once.

[You suck and have no life 203]

Let me re-emphasize this again. YOU CANT ARGUE BALANCE ISSUES ON THEORY CRAFTING. You don't have any of the relevant data.

[Melissia 7]

Actually I can, because I do have data (unlike you, I pay attention to the world outside my own ego). Multiple crit rockets happen whenever a soldier gets a kritzkrieg. A good kritzkrieg'd soldier can wipe out almost entire teams by himself.

[You suck and have no life 203]

Actually I can, because I do have data (unlike you, I pay attention to the world outside my own ego). Multiple crit rockets happen whenever a soldier gets a kritzkrieg. A good kritzkrieg'd soldier can wipe out almost entire teams by himself.

Again, the crit rocket mentioning was not a real proposal. I was simply mentioning that I would trade my current rocket for a crit rocket that holds one rocket.

But then again, a single crit rocket isnt the same as 4 crit rockets in a row is it (your stupid kritzkrieg example)? Do you have the actual reload time for this non existent weapon? Oh you do? Did you pull it out of your ass? If you are going to argue with me, prove 1. you are a better tf2 player. 2. you have programmed before. 3. you work with statistics. Oh wait you have none.

[Melissia 7]

Yes, actually, I do know the reload time. It is the same as the other rocket launcher's reload because you did not specify a different reload time with your idea. If you had wanted a changed reload time and weren't an egotistical twatbox, you'd have said so in your origonal idea, but you didn't so your objection is irrelevant as always. Also, you stated you'd like two crit rockets, not one ("I would trade a regular rocket for a 1 shot crit rocket. Preferably a 2 shot crit rocket."), not that you'd actually rememeber any of the moronic bullshit that you post (that would require mental capacity beyond the level of "I think I'm awesome, why doesn't anyone agree with me"-- something you do not have).

Edited June 15, 2009 by Melissia

[You suck and have no life 203]

Yes, actually, I do know the reload time. It is the same as the other rocket launcher's reload because you did not specify a different reload time with your idea. If you had wanted a changed reload time and weren't an egotistical twatbox, you'd have said so in your origonal idea, but you didn't so your objection is irrelevant as always. Also, you stated you'd like two crit rockets, not one ("I would trade a regular rocket for a 1 shot crit rocket. Preferably a 2 shot crit rocket."), not that you'd actually rememeber any of the moronic bullshit that you post (that would require mental capacity beyond the level of "I think I'm awesome, why doesn't anyone agree with me"-- something you do not have).

You forgot the first sentence. I will reiterate it for you again:

Again, the crit rocket mentioning was not a real proposal. I was simply mentioning that I would trade my current rocket for a crit rocket that holds one rocket.

if you are going to argue, talk about the main point.

[Melissia 7]

If you are not making real suggestions and contributions to the thread and are merely tossing around wishy-washy bullshit and trolling, then your post is completely and utterly worthless and suitable for either ignoring or telling you the usual "shutup suckylife, the real people are talking over here".

Your pick.