Soldier Update

[You suck and have no life 203]

You ever play Halo? This describes Halo's RL perfectly. The only difference is that Halo's rocket can fire twice before reloading.

Can 2 halo rockets kill someone at full health?

[+Henry Spencer 117]

Uh, 1 Halo rocket annhilates everything. Even the splash is fairly deadly, if I remember correctly.

[You suck and have no life 203]

You ever play Halo? This describes Halo's RL perfectly. The only difference is that Halo's rocket can fire twice before reloading.

Can 2 halo rockets kill someone at full health?

Uh, 1 Halo rocket annhilates everything. Even the splash is fairly deadly, if I remember correctly.

Yep, pretty much sums it up. If a solder has 1 rocket, that does 90-100 damage and can kill nobody with 1 hit. And a Halo dude has TWO rockets, and each rocket can kill someone. It doesn't take a chemical engineer to figure out how these aren't exactly equal.

[+Henry Spencer 117]

Give him a 1 shot RPG that arcs and does 135 damage on a bodyshot, plus has splash damage. Slow down the reload, and give him 4 reserve rounds. No rocket jumping. Makes you focus more on being a team player and defensive, since you have so few rounds. Crits would probably be an insta-kill, but when you're firing that slow, even a kritz would only manage to get like, 2 shots off.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Henry Spencer

[You suck and have no life 203]

I would trade a regular rocket for a 1 shot crit rocket. Preferably a 2 shot crit rocket.

[kuttlewug 28]

I would trade a regular rocket for a 1 shot crit rocket. Preferably a 2 shot crit rocket.

Ditto

[Mike808 1]

I would trade a regular rocket for a 1 shot crit rocket. Preferably a 2 shot crit rocket.

anyone would but valve would never do that. to strong, plus i wont give up rocket jumping

[Melissia 7]

And I'd like to be able to get headshots by shooting the enemy anywhere in the body with my revolver. That'd be less broken than the soldier autocrit to boot.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Melissia

[Krash 1,040]

I had this idea a long time ago where they should add or replace a class with a ammunition dispenser guy. Kinda like the medic for ammo. And a upgrade for the rocket launcher is a Mark 19 sort of device. It launches less powerful grenades but at close range you can bounce them around corners, you get and increased clip (to maybe 20 or so), but you have to deal with making sure you dont over heat it. What choo guys think?

[Game AI Dev (Dave) 17]

Remember, everything that is added into the game has to mesh well enough with everything else to preserve the balance. TF2 and many other games with different units (whether it be FPS, RTS, TBS, etc.) are designed like Rock-Paper-Scissors. The difference is, the matrix is more than a simple 3x3. It's Rock-Paper-Scissors on steroids. The goal is that there should be no one "golden unit" - or in this case, "golden unit/weapon combo" that stands out from the rest.

The most obvious way of balancing something like this is changing the damage to rate of fire ratio. If you increase the damage per shot, you need to decrease the rate of fire for those shots in order to not give the class too much of a boost. This includes the reload time, of course. For example, if you were to give the soldier 8 rockets before a reload instead of his normal 4, he is going to be able to do more damage over the same period of time. (BTW, this is why it's not efficient to uber a solder compared to a demo. Because the uber time is finite, you don't want to waste it reloading. The demo can chug out 12 long-delivery shots non-stop.)

I respect what Valve has been able to pull off in that there have been so many updates with new weapons and new abilities. As the number increases, each additional one boosts the complexity of the balance calculations. They have managed to avoid the "golden unit" scenario for the most part. Much of that has to do with the other layer of R-P-S complexity that doesn't have as much to do with the damage numbers, however... that of class matchups. It is hard to win with only one type of class. Each class has its nemesis.

For example, many demomen know that it is a bitch to try and swat the gnat-like scouts that buzz around your head. The demos weapons just don't cut it one-on-one against a scout. Therefore, an all demo team (for sake of example) would be very harried by an all scout team.

Spies and demos trump engies.

Engies trump many other things - like the pesky bouncing scouts.

Pyros (and to an extent, heavies) trump spies.

Heavies trump pyros (most of the time).

This is all based on their abilities and manner of attack. None of this is 100%, of course. A circle-strafing pyro can take down a heavy, for example - but that just adds the complexity of the situation. That's why a proper team balance helps. However, that proper team balance needs to be fluid in response to what the other team is doing. If the defenders have a ton of sentries, you go with medics, demos and spies. If the defenders are running with a ton of crit medics instead of sentries, you mow them and their buddy down with heavies before they can get more than a shot or two off. It's a non-stop balancing act.

This, of course, is why they had to release the sniper and spy updates together. Their new abilities were inter-linked... and not just directly like the sniper's shield. If we make the sniper more powerful in general, we also have to make him more vulnerable - in general. What better way than to make the spy slightly more powerful since... as we know... spies trump snipers? ;-)

Anyway, I'm always interested in what Valve puts out in this game just to see how well balanced it is and see if and how the game dynamic changes (other than the first miserable week where everyone simply HAS to play the new class ad nauseum).

[You suck and have no life 203]

Remember, everything that is added into the game has to mesh well enough with everything else to preserve the balance. TF2 and many other games with different units (whether it be FPS, RTS, TBS, etc.) are designed like Rock-Paper-Scissors. The difference is, the matrix is more than a simple 3x3. It's Rock-Paper-Scissors on steroids. The goal is that there should be no one "golden unit" - or in this case, "golden unit/weapon combo" that stands out from the rest.

The most obvious way of balancing something like this is changing the damage to rate of fire ratio. If you increase the damage per shot, you need to decrease the rate of fire for those shots in order to not give the class too much of a boost. This includes the reload time, of course. For example, if you were to give the soldier 8 rockets before a reload instead of his normal 4, he is going to be able to do more damage over the same period of time. (BTW, this is why it's not efficient to uber a solder compared to a demo. Because the uber time is finite, you don't want to waste it reloading. The demo can chug out 12 long-delivery shots non-stop.)

I respect what Valve has been able to pull off in that there have been so many updates with new weapons and new abilities. As the number increases, each additional one boosts the complexity of the balance calculations. They have managed to avoid the "golden unit" scenario for the most part. Much of that has to do with the other layer of R-P-S complexity that doesn't have as much to do with the damage numbers, however... that of class matchups. It is hard to win with only one type of class. Each class has its nemesis.

For example, many demomen know that it is a bitch to try and swat the gnat-like scouts that buzz around your head. The demos weapons just don't cut it one-on-one against a scout. Therefore, an all demo team (for sake of example) would be very harried by an all scout team.

Spies and demos trump engies.

Engies trump many other things - like the pesky bouncing scouts.

Pyros (and to an extent, heavies) trump spies.

Heavies trump pyros (most of the time).

This is all based on their abilities and manner of attack. None of this is 100%, of course. A circle-strafing pyro can take down a heavy, for example - but that just adds the complexity of the situation. That's why a proper team balance helps. However, that proper team balance needs to be fluid in response to what the other team is doing. If the defenders have a ton of sentries, you go with medics, demos and spies. If the defenders are running with a ton of crit medics instead of sentries, you mow them and their buddy down with heavies before they can get more than a shot or two off. It's a non-stop balancing act.

This, of course, is why they had to release the sniper and spy updates together. Their new abilities were inter-linked... and not just directly like the sniper's shield. If we make the sniper more powerful in general, we also have to make him more vulnerable - in general. What better way than to make the spy slightly more powerful since... as we know... spies trump snipers? ;-)

Anyway, I'm always interested in what Valve puts out in this game just to see how well balanced it is and see if and how the game dynamic changes (other than the first miserable week where everyone simply HAS to play the new class ad nauseum).

You always have to write a whole damn essay to prove out a simple concept. We all know this. Its a great way to lose an audience when they start not giving a shit. You have the same problem in the game where you talk in too much detail that it is actually a distraction. Instead of "sentry by the gate" you say "the sentry is 3 feet from the gate with an engineer 4 feet behind it and the sentry gun is facing north at an angle blah blah blah"

[Moby 24]

You always have to write a whole damn essay to prove out a simple concept. We all know this. Its a great way to lose an audience when they start not giving a shit. You have the same problem in the game where you talk in too much detail that it is actually a distraction. Instead of "sentry by the gate" you say "the sentry is 3 feet from the gate with an engineer 4 feet behind it and the sentry gun is facing north at an angle blah blah blah"

You should go jump off a cliff.

I could explain why i think you should do that, or make a suggestion for a specific cliff, or suggest that you go head first or feet first. But in the interest of brevity, I won't. Concise enough for you?

[+Henry Spencer 117]

Head first. Streamline you body, shoot for top speed and the biggest crater.

[Rivanor 1]

Pyros (and to an extent, heavies) trump spies.

Heavies trump spies? I think you've got that backward, my friend. If there are heavies to be killed, spies and snipers are the two classes most able to do it.

[Game AI Dev (Dave) 17]

You always have to write a whole damn essay to prove out a simple concept. We all know this. Its a great way to lose an audience when they start not giving a shit.

You usually stop reading unless the first line has your name in it.

You have the same problem in the game where you talk in too much detail that it is actually a distraction. Instead of "sentry by the gate" you say "the sentry is 3 feet from the gate with an engineer 4 feet behind it and the sentry gun is facing north at an angle blah blah blah"

Actually, that's an amusing parody of me. Right there with your "you have an ugly wife with 80's hair," "you sound like Homer Simpson," and all the other jokes that you have been recycling about me for 8 months.

And, considering that I often kill sentries without an uber and without even seeing the sentry itself, having accurate information is rather helpful.

Heavies trump spies? I think you've got that backward, my friend. If there are heavies to be killed, spies and snipers are the two classes most able to do it.

Which is why I qualified it by saying "to an extent". I agree that snipers and spies are the best bet for getting heavies (sticky carpets being another one). However, there are two simple ways of sweeping for spies in an area - pyros (as we all know) and a heavy spraying metal everywhere. The pyro approach is preferable because you don't need to kill them yourself... just turn them into a pillar of running flame so everyone can see.

The actual R-P-S matrix is not only a bitch, but also not binary... it's "fuzzy" in that there are degrees of "trumping."

[Miyari 33]

Heavies trump spies? I think you've got that backward, my friend. If there are heavies to be killed, spies and snipers are the two classes most able to do it.

To be fair, a good pyro can easily circle strafe flame or axetinguish kill a heavy, so they are more effective than most.

[Game AI Dev (Dave) 17]

To be fair, a good pyro can easily circle strafe flame or axetinguish kill a heavy, so they are more effective than most.

I thought I mentioned that somewhere, too. Sorry. Like I said in my last post, not all of this is one or the other... there are degrees of pwnage involved.

[Rivanor 1]

To be fair, a good pyro can easily circle strafe flame or axetinguish kill a heavy, so they are more effective than most.

I'd like to qualify this with "a good pyro can easily [kill] a _BAD_ heavy".

[You suck and have no life 203]

You usually stop reading unless the first line has your name in it.

1. We aren't talking about me.

2. Even if we were, you're still wrong

Actually, that's an amusing parody of me. Right there with your "you have an ugly wife with 80's hair," "you sound like Homer Simpson," and all the other jokes that you have been recycling about me for 8 months.

Yes and? Its true. I didnt say it was helping the team, its still true though.

And, considering that I often kill sentries without an uber and without even seeing the sentry itself, having accurate information is rather helpful.

1. Just because its accurate, doesn't mean its useful. There are plenty of accurate, non relevant, and low priority information regardless whether its TF2 or anything else. You fail biology and psychology. Our perception of the world is never really the world itself. Our brain filters our information based on our previous experiences. It also filters out information that is irrelevant and redundant.

I bet right now before telling you this, you are unaware that your shirt is touching your skin even though your skin nerves are firing these signals to the brain.

I bet right now you aren't noticing the noise coming from your computer hardware, your brain filtered out the sound because its background noise. Your brain tunes out all of this subconsciously.

I would consider myself a decent multitasker, and decent at the game, and I'm telling you Dave right now, I find myself ignoring you quite frequently. This is not a conscious decision. I tune you out because you talk too damn much that it becomes "background noise". I realize this because I actually attempt to try and listen to everything and many times I ask myself, "wtf did he just say?". I'm just giving you my honest feedback dude.

2. You are bragging about killing sentries without ubers. Is that really worth bragging about?

Which is why I qualified it by saying "to an extent". I agree that snipers and spies are the best bet for getting heavies (sticky carpets being another one). However, there are two simple ways of sweeping for spies in an area - pyros (as we all know) and a heavy spraying metal everywhere. The pyro approach is preferable because you don't need to kill them yourself... just turn them into a pillar of running flame so everyone can see.

The actual R-P-S matrix is not only a bitch, but also not binary... it's "fuzzy" in that there are degrees of "trumping."

Subconscious competence and proficiency at TF2 game play beats slightly above mediocre game play with self proclaimed theory-craft.

[Miyari 33]

Would you fucking stop derailing every god damned thread on the forums and turning it into some dick-wagging flamefest? Both of you, fuck.

[petercrab 0]

Would you fucking stop derailing every god damned thread on the forums and turning it into some dick-wagging flamefest? Both of you, fuck.

I am the best Heavy. I am trying to improve my Boxing glove skills at the moment.

[FunkyFresh 68]

Best heavy, eh? Cool stuff man

[redruM_13 17]

One thing that was said or hinted about in all that blah... blah was that the soldier should be more uber friendly. I think that is where at least one of his unlocks should go. Maybe some sort of sentry buster rocket.... metal detecting rocket....

On the other hand, mortar would be fun. It would be useful only in certain situations, but that is what most unlocks end up being.

[h3gi 5]

OMGF HOW DARE U I AM T3H LEETEST PRORO (PRO PYRO) IN ALL OF THE LOTUS FORTRESSES I BURN THE INFIDELS SUMTIMES I EVEN DO ADVANSED TACSTICS LIKE JUMP AND SOMETIMES I PRESS "S" AND MAYBE EVEN "A" AND "D", FOR MINDGAEMS

Edited June 14, 2009 by h3gi

[You suck and have no life 203]

Would you fucking stop derailing every god damned thread on the forums and turning it into some dick-wagging flamefest? Both of you, fuck.

Dave, I think you got beat by the talking most in the game award. At least you "try" to be helpful. The other person just talks about everything that comes to her mind. Like the fact that she cant accept some times the opponent gets a lucky shot and she ends up yelling about it over and over. Variability and probability aren't words in her dictionary.

One thing that was said or hinted about in all that blah... blah was that the soldier should be more uber friendly. I think that is where at least one of his unlocks should go. Maybe some sort of sentry buster rocket.... metal detecting rocket....

On the other hand, mortar would be fun. It would be useful only in certain situations, but that is what most unlocks end up being.

The soldier will never be as good as a demoman because he has 4 rockets vs 4 grenade + 8 stickies. If an unlock weapon yields a sentry buster or metal seeker, there would be no need for an uber at all. If your rocket auto seeks sentries, why would you ever need to peek over a corner? Further more, how would this gun function vs a regular opponent? Since its metal seeker, you shoot at a dude and it swerves away?