short circuit now viable?

[Reisen 1,973]

"Consumes 15 metal per projectile destroyed"

Ok I get the issue here. I can still chainsaw my way through Demos and Soldiers, I just lose 10 more metal with every sticky/grenade/rocket these humpers are trying to fire at me. Not like it changes anything. Once I camp in a place on Dustbowl that only Soldiers and Demos can get to by rocket/stickyjumping, my stuff is invincible anyway. explosives won't work and if they dare to confront me with Shotgun, my Sentry deals with them.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Elise

[Ruby 9,039]

-snip-

The sticky launcher is probably good to have in the game in theory and there is no doubt it wasn't as bad when the game started and it was just a bunch of newbies running around. But when Team Fortress 2 is played as a serious game by capable player, in the game's developed state, it just ruins too much else. I get that on a map like Dustbowl it's great to have sticky spam to break the sentries, and yet I also see how it makes a superior defensive team able to easily how the attackers in their spawn for the entire duration of the round. The weapon often serves a necessary function in the game and it brings some variation to the action, but often it's too powerful in both offense and defense and server to dumb down the action because of it's simple brutality.

This is true - in an interview Robin (one of TF2's main developers) said that sticky bombs were referred to as "winbombs" in development, as the dev team thought it was too powerful. Ultimately the game was patched multiple times to counter that - Demo originally had 40 instead of 24 bombs in reserve ammo and the blast radius was much bigger in 2008.

However a lot of the times, sticky camping is just a consequence of poor map design. 2fort is a very poorly designed map - any map that forces most of the action to go through a single chokepoint is just calling for stalling and slow gameplay. Sticky bombs are undoubtedly powerful in the hands of a good player (that's why there's a limit of one demoman in all competitive modes), but then again so is the medigun and so is the scattergun. While sticky spamming is a legitimate problem in pubs, players with a higher skill set generally don't perceive them as a problem - or, rather, think of them as a problem which is as big as every else

 

"Consumes 15 metal per projectile destroyed"

Ok I get the issue here. I can still chainsaw my way through Demos and Soldiers, I just lose 10 more metal with every sticky/grenade/rocket these humpers are trying to fire at me. Not like it changes anything. Once I camp in a place on Dustbowl that only Soldiers and Demos can get to by rocket/stickyjumping, my stuff is invincible anyway. explosives won't work and if they dare to confront me with Shotgun, my Sentry deals with them.

Snipers, Heavies and shotguns are still a thing in this game.

[Nano 7,892]

Well, I haven't played with the Short Circuit since the big buff, so I can only go from what I see, which is that all projectiles are destroyed, regardless of fairly heavy spam. The struggles you mention sound quite map-specific. In some maps, so-called "spammaps" (Dustbowl, for instance), the entire team will be one or two points at the same time. Only on these kind of maps would an engineer have to withstand barrage after barrage of spam from the attackers without any other defenders intervening. However, on other maps, there will often just be 3-4 attackers to do the job, and often several defenders. Now, having 200 metal alone should mean that a soldier and a sticky demo can spam all their ammo at you without any effect. If you stand next to your dispenser, I'm sure that two soldiers and two sticky demos could spam at you without ever doing any damage. Add another engie to the mix, and now you have the entire offense of the enemy team spamming at you to no effect. No matter whether that is "difficult" or requires preparation, it's still endlessly harmful to the gameplay. It basically cancels out what people are doing, meaning that TF2 becomes more a game of repetition, less of a game of skill. If a pyro airblasts a rocket, which he can only do to a very limited effect, he can use it to kill the opponent. Meanwhile, the effect of spamming Short Circuit is simply that the engie can keep sitting on his ass and all people can do is to constantly have the same boring fight against the same sentry.

Thanks for response.  Definitely food for thought.  It's true I spend most of my time on dustbowl, goldrush, badwater, and upward.  It makes sense that different maps would have a different result.

[Reisen 1,973]

Snipers, Heavies and shotguns are still a thing in this game.

 

 

Once I camp in a place on Dustbowl that only Soldiers and Demos can get to by rocket/stickyjumping, my stuff is invincible anyway.

 

And yes, Dustbowl has that kind of spot. the one near the controlpoint at the rocket defense part of Dustbowl. Only Pyros with Detonators/Soldiers/Demos get up there. They can't do anything, I can teleport back with Eureka if metal runs short and dispenser is empty, which did not happen so far. They can't kill my Sentry with melee or shotgun, so they are helpless, unless they somehow manage to get a quickfix medic up there who "SURPRISINGLY" has a full charge. Then again, I want to see a Demo melee my Sentrygun as I still destroy his projectiles, even during his stupid uber.

Maybe Soldier could stop me with Shotgun and Quickfix Med, but good luck with that xD

[Barbaro 466]

Is it just me or does the circuit now have to be aimed more directly at projectiles? Noticed some of them not being affected earlier today...they might have turned a good defense weapon into a shit one.

[Nano 7,892]

Is it just me or does the circuit now have to be aimed more directly at projectiles? Noticed some of them not being affected earlier today...they might have turned a good defense weapon into a shit one.

http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Talk:Short_Circuit#The_true_stats_for_the_Short_Circuit_after_January_9.2C_2014_patch_.28patch_notes_are_incomplete.29

The true stats for the Short Circuit after January 9, 2014 patch (patch notes are incomplete)

The JANUARY 9, 2014 UPDATE actually increased the damage output to 10 points damage per shot! Fast attack speed is still the same as it was after the Dec 10, 2013 update.

Screenshot proof:

Damage output against players/bots is 10 points/shot

Addendum: Apparently the damage does drop off slightly from 10 points to 9 points at extreme edge of the SC's range.

Screenshot: damage drop-off at the edge of range

Note: The DECEMBER 20, 2013 UPDATE update had actually lowered the Short Circuit's damage output against players/bots from previously 5 points to 2 points per shot, a change which was left undocumented both in the patch notes and the TF2 Wiki.

Screenshot proof (screenshots date from Dec 25, 2013): 2 damage per hit, cost -5 metal

The metal cost for destroying a projectile is -20 metal, instead of -15 metal as the official patch notes claim.

Screenshot proof:

Metal cost for destroying projectiles is -20 metal instead of -15 -- VS ROCKET

Metal cost for destroying projectiles is -20 metal instead of -15 -- VS ROCKET

Metal cost for destroying projectiles is -20 metal instead of -15 -- VS ROCKET

Metal cost for destroying projectiles is -20 metal instead of -15 -- VS GRENADE

Metal cost for destroying projectiles is -20 metal instead of -15 -- VS GRENADE

ADDENDUM and CORRECTION see below. It's (-5)+(-15) metal

Undocumented: Metal cost for a missed shot is -5 metal. Metal cost for hitting and damaging a player/bot is also only -5 metal. Which means the Short Circuit is now actually even more dangerous against enemy players than less (except underwater).

Screenshot proof:

Metal cost -5 for hitting a player/bot

Metal cost -5 for hitting a player/bot

Metal cost -5 for a missed shot

Metal cost -5 for a missed shot

History of the metal cost changes

Prior to July 10, 2013: -35 metal/shot, every shot

After July 10, 2013: -36 metal per missed shot, -18 metal for a shot that destroyed a projectile or damaged an enemy or building.

After Dec 20, 2013: -5 metal/shot, every shot

After January 9, 2014: -5 metal/shot for missed shots, -5 metal/shot if you hit an enemy, -20 metal/shot to destroy a projectile. (Patch notes are incorrect.)

I posted my full notes and discussion here on the Steam TF2 forums. --Knusperfrosch (talk) 20:05, 9 January 2014 (PST)

CORRECTION: Well, I was partially right, but also wrong. I stand corrected.

As ShenanAgain posted here:

The patch notes aren't wrong so much as they're incomplete. It really does cost 15 metal to destroy a projectile; they just neglected to mention that the 15 metal is on top of the 5 metal needed to fire the weapon.

To illustrate this, here is a cluster of 5 stickies. To remove this trap, it takes 15 metal per sticky eliminated (a total of 75) and 5 metal to fire the Short Circuit. That adds up to 80. --Knusperfrosch (talk)

it wouldn't surprise me if there were other undocumented changes too.

[D-Bee 3,448]

Jesus...So does the damn thing do 10 damage or 2? That's the real issue here.

[luop90 4,400]

Jesus...So does the damn thing do 10 damage or 2? That's the real issue here.

 

10. Whenever I play dustbowl and go on defense I'll go Eureka Effect and the Short Circuit. Than just build a dispensor and spam the little fucker.

[Barbaro 466]

Damn it Valve, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! I don't mind it was a shitty weapon but holy hell stop encouraging people to go Offensive Engi with these annoying weapons.

 

I'm tempted to use something else other than the Short Circuit, even though I used to rely on it to keep Soldier/Demo/Pyro/Sniper spam out of my area.

[D-Bee 3,448]

10. Whenever I play dustbowl and go on defense I'll go Eureka Effect and the Short Circuit. Than just build a dispensor and spam the little fucker.

I guess Sniper has a new priority target! What a giant pain in the ass!

[+JB. 4,800]

I have to try this Thing Out sometimes. I think nothing Beats pistol on offensive engie.

[Nano 7,892]

they've made it completely useless with today's update for defense by removing the ability to gain metal from the dispenser while active.

of course it does nothing to stop the source of most of the complaints, gunslingers on offense who will be unaffected.

guess it's back to my wrangler and pistol...

[Se7en 10,762]

Heh. Babies won.

[fever 9,884]

Probably the same ones who got wave 4 on Empire nerfed in the Two Cities update

[+JB. 4,800]

Back to Gunboats.

[luop90 4,400]

Well. Its useless now. It needed a fix, but not that one....

[+Dr. Obvious 14,606]

Well. Its useless now. It needed a fix, but not that one....

You mean, making it a weapon that can't spam anymore makes it useless?

[Nano 7,892]

You mean, making it a weapon that can't spam anymore makes it useless?

if we replaced the word short circuit with a mini gun, rockets, pipes, etc where the ammo wouldnt refill from a dispenser without switching away would the same "good, now you cant spam" logic still make sense? every weapon "spams" if it can be used more than once.

[+Dr. Obvious 14,606]

if we replaced the word short circuit with a mini gun, rockets, pipes, etc where the ammo wouldnt refill from a dispenser without switching away would the same "good, now you cant spam" logic still make sense? every weapon "spams" if it can be used more than once.

Firing continuously without having to reload is the very definition of a spamming wep. Yep, this includes a flamethrower, too.

[Se7en 10,762]

Firing continuously without having to reload is the very definition of a spamming wep. Yep, this includes a flamethrower, too.

 

 

^point.

[+Dr. Obvious 14,606]

Firing continuously without having to reload is the very definition of a spamming wep. Yep, this includes a flamethrower, too.

Technically, this even goes for the medigun... getting disconnected after a full overheal would make more sense to me, tbh.

[Nano 7,892]

Firing continuously without having to reload is the very definition of a spamming wep. Yep, this includes a flamethrower, too.

okay then, well I guess I disagree with your premise then. just because a weapon can be fired multiple times doesn't mean that you shouldnt be able to refill the ammunition in my opinion. with this latest update that is exactly what valve has done.

[+Dr. Obvious 14,606]

okay then, well I guess I disagree with your premise then. just because a weapon can be fired multiple times doesn't mean that you shouldnt be able to refill the ammunition in my opinion. with this latest update that is exactly what valve has done.

Oh, i didn't say i agree with this update. It would've made more sense if you had to actually reload it, instead of coming up with "well, people complained about this weapon that much that we're just going to make it unusable".

[Asjo 90]

I'm not convinced that this change fully fixes Short Circuit, although it definitely reduces effectiveness. With 200 metal, you can still destroy 13 projectiles. Then you can switch to your wrench and repair your sentry, and then, if there isn't too much spam to prevent you increasing your metal, you can switch back and destroy more projectiles. But it's a clever attempt at a fix, since it means that the engineer will not be able to beat continuous spam from attackers anymore because his metal will run out, and using Short Circuit will now require more awareness, not just mindlessly pressing your fire-key. I have no doubt this will make many switch away from it, since it takes more effort.

 

So, the patch update brings Short Circuit closer to it's original function of destroying projectiles in specific situations, although it's still significantly more powerful and before it was first buffed. If a sticky demo or soldier gets an über to kill your sentry, you can still make sure their efforts are absolutely useless, regardless of how well they play.

[Wrecking Balls 2,507]

Look! If I fire 4 rockets to the sentry you still have enough ammo to destroy those rockets. If I have to reload you can also switch weapon and get metal from dispenser. The way it was only heavy and spy had a chance to destroy it.