Too Serious Vs. Waste Of Space?

[Captain Planet 28]

I never use K/D or Assist/D ratios. They're not very informative. I always go by point ratio, which usually indicates how well you're contributing to the team. The problem with the straight ratios is that there are multiple types, K/D, Assist/D, Teleports/D, etc. Point ratio is quick and easy.

Speaking of teleporters, anyone here taken my teles that go backwards on Badwater?

[EagleEye 20]

This is going to be a long reply... I can feel it...

But... it will probably be pretty informative as well, and answer the OP's question rather well.

As a self-designated game designer, I have had to do a lot of research about what makes games fun for people. As a future teacher, I have had to learn about different types of LEARNERS. As a "generally interested in anything intellectual" type of guy, I have researched personality types and other psychology-related topics throughout my life.

What I have found to be rather consistent across every aspect of life is that there are generally four types of people out there, and those four types translate in to "gamer types" as well.

From the original personality types defined by Hippocrates, to the refined ones described by Meyers-Briggs, people have often been categorized in these four types. I'm sure many of you you have heard of the original ones... Sanguine, Melancholy, Choleric, and Phlegmatic...

Well... Meyers-Briggs, and later Dr. David Keirsey (Author of "Please Understand Me" (1 and 2)) revised their naming and descriptions...

Artisans

Guardians

Idealists

Rationals

In the game world, specifically in multi-player games, there was a group of MUD developers that got together and after much discussion determined that there are once again four types of players who play multi-player games!

Amazing how there are always four...

Anyway, the way THEY described it was by equating each type to the suits of a deck of cards. Hearts, clubs, diamonds, spades... In fact... here's a link to the original essay.

The way he described it was like a 2 dimentional axis (or plane)... you know, with the X axis and Y axis. On one axis you'd have PLAYERS versus WORLD, and the other axis is how ACTING versus INTERACTING.

What you end up with is 4 quadrants:

- Acting on the world

- Interacting with the world

- Acting on other players

- Interacting with other players

And thus we see the four types...

Those who act on the world are the diamonds... the achievers... the ones who use the game mechanics to rack up "score board"

Then there are those who act on other players... the clubs... they like to directly influence another player in real life, via the game... by frustrating them, making them angry, baiting them in to their traps, etc...

Those who Interact with other PLAYERS are the hearts... the social players... the ones that don't care about scoreboard or success, as long as they can chat with their friends (and look good doing it).

The last type, the spades, are the diggers... they interact with the world to find all of the tricks, hidden secrets, best ways to do things, etc...

CAVEAT: NO ONE is purely one type... we are all varying degrees of all 4 of these... it's what we hold as our PRIMARY goals and where we PRIMARILY get our happiness and enjoyment from, that we find what type we are... in other words: everyone's a hybrid of all 4 types, we're all just STRONGEST in one of these.

So where does that leave us as far as TF2 is concerned?

In this thread, I have seen all four types.

The achievers (the diamonds) are the ones that go for scoreboard... EXTREME examples are the ones that go for their personal scoreboard and don't CARE about the rest of the team's scores or the overall success of the team.

There probably aren't many "primarily socializers" (the hearts) that play this game or any FPS... but you can tell when you have a hybrid socializer. These are the people that are always like "can't we all just get along?" These types also really like to play with their friends, and will leave a server when their friends leave.

The killers (the clubs) are the ones that will attempt to kill specific people. They enjoy the thrill of dominating that one person on the other team that pissed them off... they enjoy baiting that specific person in to their trap of stickies... or getting the best of that one spy that has backstabbed them a lot...

The explorers/diggers (spades) are the ones that analyze the game... have a love for strategy... and see the whole team as tools to make their strategy work.

So... who is who?

Stabby is very much a killer and an achiever. Not social, likes to just go out and kill... and god knows he seeks me out to get the best of me, because it's a challenge to him.

You Suck... achiever to the max. Killer second.

My brother Dave and I: Both HARDCORE diggers. Dave with his "I just found a new trick shot to kill a sentry blind" stuff... and his constant use of his chart, and how he attempts to organize a team in to that "perfect fit" of class balance to achive the overall goal. To him, the game is a puzzle... he's said it himself... it's "rock paper scisors on steroids".

Dave and I are also very much achievers, but that's our secondary trait. We're always going for personal bests... high scoreboards... MVP placements... but to get those, we believe more in using the entire team as a whole.

See... personally I am the ENTJ type according to Meyers-Briggs. That type is dubbed "The Fieldmarshal". In the description of that type, it even says that I consider people around me to be pawns for use in my plans, and that I will sacrifice those pawns if necessary.

Anyway... as I said... this is getting very long and probably has more detail than anyone cared to know.

The real challenge to remember is this: All types are necessary... all types are valuable... and you can't expect someone to change to (or even UNDERSTAND) your way of doing things. Achievers will always be achievers, and will not at all understand the whole "I don't care about my scoreboard as long as I'm having fun" attitude. Killers can not be persuaded to forego that personal vendetta against another player, just to help the team win. Socializers will ALWAYS be frustrated with assholes... and Non-explorers will always look at explorer types with an upraised eyebrow thinking "man, you take this game WAY too seriously!"

[h3gi 5]

Speaking of teleporters, anyone here taken my teles that go backwards on Badwater?

Hey.

Hey, you.

Fuck you.

[You suck and have no life 203]

Remind me to give a shit wether you believe anything next time, suckylife, and perhaps I shall.

Your screenshot wasn't proof

At least I got screenshots. You don't got didly squat. You saying you don't give a shit is nothing more than admitting you can't prove it.

*The achievers (the diamonds) are the ones that go for scoreboard... EXTREME examples are the ones that go for their personal scoreboard and don't CARE about the rest of the team's scores or the overall success of the team.

*There probably aren't many "primarily socializers" (the hearts) that play this game or any FPS... but you can tell when you have a hybrid socializer. These are the people that are always like "can't we all just get along?" These types also really like to play with their friends, and will leave a server when their friends leave.

*The killers (the clubs) are the ones that will attempt to kill specific people. They enjoy the thrill of dominating that one person on the other team that pissed them off... they enjoy baiting that specific person in to their trap of stickies... or getting the best of that one spy that has backstabbed them a lot...

*The explorers/diggers (spades) are the ones that analyze the game... have a love for strategy... and see the whole team as tools to make their strategy work.

You Suck... achiever to the max. Killer second.

If I'm strictly an achiever, then why do I get pissed when my team plays poorly? And why am I all of a sudden mellow when my team goes on win streaks even though I'm not MVP? If I don't care about how my team is performing, why do I tell my team to not play snipers and scouts? Why do I tell them where sentry guns are? Please... you act as if being good solo and being a team player cant overlap.

I never attempt to kill specific people, like ever. Considering I play demo a lot, I might not even be pointing at you since the projection is curved. Thus I wouldn't even know who you are until you die. You jump into my grenade, too bad for you. I don't scan for peoples names, that just takes away my attention (unless I'm medic). I rarely get dominated so I have no reason to target specific people. It is also stupid because your threat is always the immediate person engaging you, not some other guy down the road. By the time I get there, I'm already killed by someone else. And also, if I want to post a screenshot to prove my point, well I guess I just have so many screenshots of me owning whoever I want to prove my point to.

TF2 is not a diggers game. This isn't Stacraft. 99% of the game decisions are made subconciously. I can play TF2 while being tired, have my eyes out of focus staring at an imaginary spot in the distance behind my monitor and still perform above average. I'm not really thinking at all. You don't need a special quadrant of your brain to be a digger. All intelligent people are diggers. This does not pertain to a game. Retards fall for the same mistake over and over. Smart people learn from their first mistake, and even smarter people learn from other peoples mistakes.

And last thought. There are really ONLY 2 attributes to TF2.

1. Knowing what to do (where to hide, build, spam, where enemy sentries are, the risk of a particular path)

2. Motor skills (self explanatory)

Those are the input variables. The output variables: Its really just the achiever. The achiever is just a byproduct of being good. Someone who sucks can not be a so called "achiever" even if he wanted to. Buy a mic and talk about whats going on, boom all of a sudden you are a team player.

My brother Dave and I: Both HARDCORE diggers. Dave with his constant use of his chart, and how he attempts to organize a team in to that "perfect fit" of class balance to achive the overall goal. To him, the game is a puzzle... he's said it himself... it's "rock paper scisors on steroids".

Really? Why the fancy wording? Perfect fit of classes? TF2 is a puzzle? Since he only plays 32 map dustbowl, does the puzzle look like this?

Actual:

3-4 snipers

2 spies

2 scouts

0 medics

0 demos

Ideal:

3-4 medics

2 engineers

10 demos and soldiers

You want to solve the puzzle? Tell the fuck tard snipers and scouts who cant aim/kill didly shit to go medic or demoman. Wow puzzle solved.

Edited June 8, 2009 by YouSuckAndYouHaveNoLife

[Melissia 7]

I never use K/D or Assist/D ratios. They're not very informative. I always go by point ratio, which usually indicates how well you're contributing to the team. The problem with the straight ratios is that there are multiple types, K/D, Assist/D, Teleports/D, etc. Point ratio is quick and easy.

This is true. I always have pretty good amount of points myself, unless I'm completely failing that day (which is quite rare). If I go engy then I don't always have a lot of kills (especially if my team is actually playing well), but I'll have probably have points for teleports, heals, and assists, and relatively few deaths. Same for good medics, although I certainly won't claim to be one (I hate playing medic).

Hehe, last night I got some awesome KD ratios -and- awesome points on steel as a defense sniper. First place as sniper on one of the matches despite the fact that headshots were reduced from 2 points each, and the other matches I got third place (damn demospamming ).

Edited June 8, 2009 by Melissia

[+Henry Spencer 117]

There probably aren't many "primarily socializers" (the hearts) that play this game or any FPS... but you can tell when you have a hybrid socializer. These are the people that are always like "can't we all just get along?" These types also really like to play with their friends, and will leave a server when their friends leave.

Heart here. I don't play anymore unless I'm playing with my friends. I generally do nothing but goof around and talk. I couldn't care less about my score, as long as I have a positive KDR. The constant bitching about one or two people pisses me off and makes me wish there was a permanent votemute function. As soon as everyone leaves, I leave too. There are a few people I like playing with more than others, like Miyari, Captain Planet, Lorax, and Phantom. When they're all on the same team at the same time... oh man, so many lulz are had.

[Melissia 7]

I have to concur with Henry... many, many lulz are to be had when those four are all on the same team, along with others such as nket and keg. So much win in so many ways, as these people not only are good, but they also actually have interesting personalities.

[redruM_13 17]

It's my reason, at least. I don't join the winning team just for wins. It's great stuff when both teams are even on the skill level and those big/long battles happen.

These are the best times playing TF2.

I think team stack arises naturally because psychologically, people like to hang out with other people of similar skill, interest, and abilities. This explains why Stephen Hawkins probably doesn't have many high school dropout friends, and Kobe Bryant, doesn't hang out with middle school basketball players.

We also like to be challenged on those levels.

Ahhh..if only the stats page was back to working.

I believe that this has changed the way a lot of people are playing. There is more concern for having fun rather than worrying about stats.

It's all about the assists:deaths for me broseph. If I don't maintain at LEAST a 10:1 assist:death ratio I get pissed as fuck.

I look for ubers to death ratio as a medic. It always seems to reflect how good or bad I am playing. I guess shooting for a 10:1 ratio in assists would more than suffice.

Heart here. I don't play anymore unless I'm playing with my friends. I generally do nothing but goof around and talk. I couldn't care less about my score, as long as I have a positive KDR. The constant bitching about one or two people pisses me off and makes me wish there was a permanent votemute function. As soon as everyone leaves, I leave too. There are a few people I like playing with more than others, like Miyari, Captain Planet, Lorax, and Phantom. When they're all on the same team at the same time... oh man, so many lulz are had.

You seem as though you were doing good last night when you guys kicked my ass. I had to see the other side of that stack for myself. GG's.

[Miyari 33]

I love killing people like this.

Too bad that doesn't happen very often, eh? And I hate to be a killjoy but I'm being sarcastic, I don't rage as hard as most people honestly think. Most of them time I'm just fucking off of being sarcastic, I can probably count the number of times I've been as honestly pissed as I've sounded on like one hand. Most of the time now I've just been putting on music and mindlessly playing, it's not worth giving a shit and I can mostly play to an extent of my capability with music on I'm just a bit more vulnerable. Looks like you might actually have a chance?

I never use K/D or Assist/D ratios. They're not very informative. I always go by point ratio, which usually indicates how well you're contributing to the team. The problem with the straight ratios is that there are multiple types, K/D, Assist/D, Teleports/D, etc. Point ratio is quick and easy.

Well I definitely agree that point ratio is also more efficient for a medic considering you earn points just for doing your job (healing your teammates) but if I'm not getting assists in the process it means my team is failing which is retarded. I was just speaking from a direct perspective as a medic.

[Rydawg 14]

Stack attack played dustbowl last night, I was demo as well as Lorax, he got most the Krits while I got Ubers. I ended up as top score just barely but he had more dom's than I did. I'll have to look when I get home but i believe I was 87/16 or so which is over 5:1. Lorax on the other had would of had less deeaths with close to the same kills which i would think would be 6:1. Anyways, 5:1 is doable

[Captain Planet 28]

There probably aren't many "primarily socializers" (the hearts) that play this game or any FPS... but you can tell when you have a hybrid socializer. These are the people that are always like "can't we all just get along?" These types also really like to play with their friends, and will leave a server when their friends leave.

The killers (the clubs) are the ones that will attempt to kill specific people. They enjoy the thrill of dominating that one person on the other team that pissed them off... they enjoy baiting that specific person in to their trap of stickies... or getting the best of that one spy that has backstabbed them a lot...

The explorers/diggers (spades) are the ones that analyze the game... have a love for strategy... and see the whole team as tools to make their strategy work.

Heart mostly. Club at times, especially if one class keeps pushing my shit in. Spade is just a built in thing that any gamer should be if they are a true gamer, derpa derpa derpity derp derp.

Hey.

Hey, you.

Fuck you.

You know you love it

And to the 5/1 peeps out there. It is DOABLE. I've done it once as a spy against a bunch of oblivious people on badwater and a Dead Ringer spy. Sometimes they make me wonder... And with the offensive classes like pyro, demo, soldier (hard for me at least, still haven't perfected 5 to 1 with this bad boy), and heavy, easily doable.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Captain Planet

[You suck and have no life 203]

Stack attack played dustbowl last night, I was demo as well as Lorax, he got most the Krits while I got Ubers. I ended up as top score just barely but he had more dom's than I did. I'll have to look when I get home but i believe I was 87/16 or so which is over 5:1. Lorax on the other had would of had less deeaths with close to the same kills which i would think would be 6:1. Anyways, 5:1 is doable

You weren't a spy. As a demoman, I could get 50:1 if I wanted to.

[Rydawg 14]

i must have missed the part where you guys were talking about 5:1 as spy. just like any class it is doable. Last night during Hoodoo i think it was I was 17:3, i was just sitting at enemy spawn and stabing n cloaking when they came out. Eventually they got smart and about 5 went pyro and found me /

[You suck and have no life 203]

i must have missed the part where you guys were talking about 5:1 as spy. just like any class it is doable. Last night during Hoodoo i think it was I was 17:3, i was just sitting at enemy spawn and stabing n cloaking when they came out. Eventually they got smart and about 5 went pyro and found me /

Like I said with Melissia, 17:3 is a short time frame (less than one round). Variability / Luck can get you there once in a while. Flipping a coin, getting heads 3 times in a row is not the same as getting heads 30 times in a row. If you play long enough, you get luck streaks. But those dont last long, and they dont usually carry to multiple rounds.

In my opinion, getting 5:1 consistently, or even over 100 points as a spy is EXTREMELY hard. I know because I'm MVP as spy 50% of every round. And even for me 3:1 ratio is something I am proud of.

[The Lorax 25]

Stack attack played dustbowl last night, I was demo as well as Lorax, he got most the Krits while I got Ubers. I ended up as top score just barely but he had more dom's than I did. I'll have to look when I get home but i believe I was 87/16 or so which is over 5:1. Lorax on the other had would of had less deeaths with close to the same kills which i would think would be 6:1. Anyways, 5:1 is doable

Yeah, because we lost the first two intentionally, I had no deaths at the start of stage 3. Went the entire round with only 1 or 2 deaths I believe. Here's the end round screenshot.

This was after playing a full round on offense. Can't remember what the scores were after the stage 3 defense, but I would almost guarantee it was over 5:1. I had 9 dominations. (braggart) It's easy to do, especially as a demo. It is almost criminally easy to do that on defense of dustbowl, especially stage 3.

[Captain Planet 28]

Yeah, because we lost the first two intentionally, I had no deaths at the start of stage 3. Went the entire round with only 1 or 2 deaths I believe. Here's the end round screenshot.

This was after playing a full round on offense. Can't remember what the scores were after the stage 3 defense, but I would almost guarantee it was over 5:1. I had 9 dominations. (braggart) It's easy to do, especially as a demo. It is almost criminally easy to do that on defense of dustbowl, especially stage 3.

Look at the Captain, fuck 34 NECESSARY ENGY FTL D:

And about that spy. I went 82-17 as a spy on badwater once (No screeny, so don't ask. Wish I had it though). Just gotta pick your spots, and if you fuck up, just get the fuck outta dodge and try again later.

[You suck and have no life 203]

Wow, this thread has gone from taking about spies to "lets brag about our own kdrs".

[Spartan_0214 18]

Yeah. Wonder who started that?

[FunkyFresh 68]

Aye. Most definitely.

[The Lorax 25]

Wow, this thread has gone from taking about spies to "lets brag about our own kdrs".

No, the point here was: You mostly play demo, always on dustbowl, therefore kdr means nothing. Any idiot can spam around a corner with a kritz over and over again and get himself and his medic to the top of the scoreboard. It's fun in moderation, but it doesn't take skill, or intelligence.

[FunkyFresh 68]

HEAVY ON THE OTHER HAND, TAKES THOUSANDS OF TIMES THE SKILL AND BRAIN!

Wait

[The Lorax 25]

HEAVY ON THE OTHER HAND, TAKES THOUSANDS OF TIMES THE SKILL AND BRAIN!

Wait

How dare you!!

Good day, sir!

[Rivanor 1]

HEAVY ON THE OTHER HAND, TAKES THOUSANDS OF TIMES THE SKILL AND BRAIN!

Some people think they can outsmart me. Maybe.. *sniff* ... maybe.

But I have yet to meet someone who can outsmart BULLET!

[FunkyFresh 68]

Just kiddin, just kiddin. We all know where the true power lies. ;P

[+Henry Spencer 117]

@ redruM: I was doing well last night because I had team support. I'm pretty terrible by myself.