Melees Against Spies...

[Melissia 7]

Not sure what's going on, but I thinkafter the recent patch, every time a spy gets hit by a melee when disguised, they get critted. Every time I hit a spy with melee I critt hem,a nd every time I get hit with a melee attack as spy I get critted. I didn't see any mention of a change like this, is it some kindof bug or a new gabe special?

[Rivanor 1]

Not sure what's going on, but I thinkafter the recent patch, every time a spy gets hit by a melee when disguised, they get critted. Every time I hit a spy with melee I critt hem,a nd every time I get hit with a melee attack as spy I get critted. I didn't see any mention of a change like this, is it some kindof bug or a new gabe special?

It's always been this way. Crit chance against spies is like 75% at least.

[Miyari 33]

That's funny, because a quarter of the time I try to melee a spy now, I get facestabbed. I guess that's your natural defense, eh?

Also, I think it's just in your head. I seriously don't think critical hit chance is modified in any way at all versus spies. I challenge you to find any sort of documentation that proves me wrong. You're just being paranoid, or going against classes with extremely high melee crit % like engineers, demomen or soldiers.

[friedrice 8]

This is the complete opposite for me. I almost never crit when I melee. It's so bad, I've been debating on if I should ask Mana if he lowered the chance you get a crit based on stats somehow.

Let me give you some real examples. I'm a demo and got ubered unexpectedly. So, I pull out my bottle and start hitting some people. I got 4 hits in a row with my bottle, and no crits. Uber runs out, enemy medic hits me with a saw and gets a crit... wtf

As an engineer, it always takes me two hits to kill a spy. Sometimes I do get a crit on the 2nd hit, which would normally kill them anyway... gee thanks

As a medic, I can't remember the last time I got a crit. Naturally I try to hit people with the saw when I can to build up my uber quickly, but I never ever get a crit. I've hit a heavy 4-5 times with a saw and they still somehow lived to kill me.

So, wtf is going on I ask. This is been the case since probably the update they changed how crits work. Melee is almost useless for me now. it sucks

[You suck and have no life 203]

instead of making guesses, why not do a study?

The normal crit chance for melee is 20%. Do 100 hits on a spy, and count the % chance to hit.

[Melissia 7]

That's funny, because a quarter of the time I try to melee a spy now, I get facestabbed. I guess that's your natural defense, eh?

Also, I think it's just in your head. I seriously don't think critical hit chance is modified in any way at all versus spies. I challenge you to find any sort of documentation that proves me wrong. You're just being paranoid, or going against classes with extremely high melee crit % like engineers, demomen or soldiers.

I've gotten a total of one facestab in the past two weeks. Actually backstabs not counting as backstabs is far, FAR more common than facestabs, so I don't give a damn about anyone who whines about facestabs personally. And that's not the point of this thread anyway.

I dunno if it's me being paranoid, but I HAVE been hit by crits every single damned time I get meleed by spy. I'm being serious too, snipers, heavies, demomen, even fucking scouts, soldiers, engies, medics...

I'll do that suckylife, but I need someone to test it out with.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Melissia

[+Henry Spencer 117]

It's just you. I almost never get crits against cloaked spies running away, unless I'm a medic. Then I get a ton of them all the time, but that's because I've been healing/killing a bunch of people in a short period of time.

Also, base crit chance on the melee weapons is 15%, not 20.

[Rivanor 1]

It's not just me. [sbf]Mojo agrees with me, in fact, he pointed it out to me without me even saying anything.

[h3gi 5]

The normal crit chance for melee is 20%.

First' date=' a quick primer on how the critical hit system works. Each player's chance of successfully rolling for a critical hit depends on two factors:

* A base chance, which is fixed per weapon (2% for all non-melee weapons, 15% for melee)

* An additional bonus, which is based on the amount of damage you've done to enemies in the last 20 seconds. This bonus linearly scales with damage up to a maximum of 10%.[/quote']

Crit ramp system says unless you either wait 20 seconds between each hit or somehow get rid of the system, it's going to be a PAIN to calculate.

Or I guess you could just start counting after you hit your 800 recent damage cap and know each hit has a 25% chance of critting.

Edited March 24, 2009 by h3gi

[Mike808 1]

lol

i always crit with my wrench while hitting an enemy spy

[Rivanor 1]

That's funny, because a quarter of the time I try to melee a spy now, I get facestabbed. I guess that's your natural defense, eh?

I'm not sure where this sarcastic hostility is coming from, Miyari. Did I offend you in some way?

This may come as a surprise, but I have NO problem with melee crit chance being boosted against spies. I am actually in favor of a few spy nerfs that make it harder for the spy to get a kill once he is discovered (ie "face stabs").

In my opinion, Valve should change it so that the spy's backstab angle is drastically reduced when the enemy has a melee weapon equipped (except for the engineer). They should also make it so the spy has to be facing the target more than he currently needs to in order to get a backstab.

So no, I am not complaining about the boosted crit potential vs spies. What I _don't_ like is the fact that Valve isn't forthcoming about it.

[Melissia 7]

And I think the spy should be less vulnerable to melee weapons, because let's face it-- the spy is a primarilly melee combatant. The spy does best when in melee,and you want to maket he spy gimped there? Hell you might as well just tell people "just start using melee and whack everyone you come across, you'll instagib them if they're a spy" and spy will basicly become unplayable against a half-decent team. Spy already takes a lot more skill than most classes as it is.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Melissia

[+Henry Spencer 117]

It's not just me. [sbf]Mojo agrees with me, in fact, he pointed it out to me without me even saying anything.

By breaking a scrumpy bottle over your face?

[h3gi 5]

I am actually in favor of a few spy nerfs that make it harder for the spy to get a kill once he is discovered (ie "face stabs").

I'm reading this as face stabs are a nerf. Clarify?

Also, Spy's already got very little fighting chance once he's discovered, especially when you take his revolver out of the equation. Frontstabs do about half as much damage as any other melee weapon (except bat and, naturally, axtinguisher) and have no chance of random crits. Theoretically, facestabs shouldn't be factored in since they're not supposed to happen... but then again theory doesn't matter when what shouldn't happen happens.

Even so, the Spy's already dead by the time any decent player figures out he's there. Cloaking won't help much if you know where to shoot and how to follow.

Edit: Something I should've said before is that Engineers "naturally" have a higher crit chance without doing anything because their sentry damage counts towards his crit boost. This said, it makes sense that Wrenches are anti-spy weapons and was probably intentional.

Edited March 24, 2009 by h3gi

[ktspaz 0]

Get better you will be fine

[KillerKeg 10]

And I think the spy should be less vulnerable to melee weapons, because let's face it-- the spy is a primarilly melee combatant. The spy does best when in melee,and you want to maket he spy gimped there? Hell you might as well just tell people "just start using melee and whack everyone you come across, you'll instagib them if they're a spy" and spy will basicly become unplayable against a half-decent team. Spy already takes a lot more skill than most classes as it is.

Non-backstabs do too much damage. If a spy doesn't kill someone with the backstab they shouldn't be able to fight someone in melee and win. The spy is supposed to use stealth, not run towards someone stabbing wildly until they get a kill.

[Miyari 33]

And I think the spy should be less vulnerable to melee weapons, because let's face it-- the spy is a primarilly melee combatant. The spy does best when in melee,and you want to maket he spy gimped there? Hell you might as well just tell people "just start using melee and whack everyone you come across, you'll instagib them if they're a spy" and spy will basicly become unplayable against a half-decent team. Spy already takes a lot more skill than most classes as it is.

L2Revolver! Revolver does more damage than the sniper's SMG and Kukri (provided you're not up in his face trying to stab wildly and are actually backing off and strafe-pistoling.)

[h3gi 5]

Non-backstabs do too much damage. If a spy doesn't kill someone with the backstab they shouldn't be able to fight someone in melee and win. The spy is supposed to use stealth, not run towards someone stabbing wildly until they get a kill.

Knife:

Damage

* Point blank: 28-54

* Critical Hit: No random crit

Function Times

* Attack Interval: 0.8

Shovel' date=' Fire Axe, Bottle, Fists, Wrench, Bone Saw, Kukri:

Damage

* Point Blank: 43-87

* Critical Hit: 195

Function Times

* Attack Interval: 0.8

All times are in seconds. Damages and times are approximate and determined by community testing.[/quote']

I'm not sure how many times you've seen someone get frontstabbed to death, but honestly, if he did, he deserved it. Even without looking at stats, it was pretty obvious that the knife did less damage than other melee weapons. And this is in consideration that a Melee fight against a Spy is for ammo conservation where the other class doesn't need to pump out his normal damage; meleeing is already a downgrade from rockets and miniguns, and yet you're still going to have strict advantage over a frontstab Spy.

[Miyari 33]

Who needs frontstabs when you have facestabs? Don't pretend that they fixed shit rather than only making things worse.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Miyari

[kuttlewug 28]

Spy has gotten frustrating to play I think its just you.

[Melissia 7]

ktspaz: Pardon me for my arrogance, but I am already one of the better spies on the Lotusclan servers. Certainly better than the vast majority of people who play spy, and I'd put my own runs up agaisnt those of the guys from /a/, or Mojo's, or anyone from Lotus and so on, without shame.

Miyari: The revolver requires a the most aiming skill of any weapon in the game (more than the sniper rifle even, because when using the sniper rifle you are moving very slowly, while when using the revolver you are often moving rather quickly and dodging things). That said, I DO use the revolver, and have quite a few kills with it. But honestly, the only thing good about the revolver is its random damage (it has good highs), but on servers without random damage quite frankly it's pretty crappy.

Non-backstabs do too much damage. If a spy doesn't kill someone with the backstab they shouldn't be able to fight someone in melee and win. The spy is supposed to use stealth, not run towards someone stabbing wildly until they get a kill.

Pfft, yeah, right, obviously you've not recently tried to kill someone with a knife in melee without trying to circle around for a sidestab (which is what most people call facestabs, but they're too much of a noob to admit it). Insert flippant "play spy moar n00b" comment here Hehe.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Melissia

[friedrice 8]

Non-backstabs do too much damage. If a spy doesn't kill someone with the backstab they shouldn't be able to fight someone in melee and win. The spy is supposed to use stealth, not run towards someone stabbing wildly until they get a kill.

It takes 3-4 knife hits to kill a sniper, and then let's not forget that the knife never crits unless it's a backstab.

Most of the time I just pull out my gun and run backwards. Typically works much better than risking a melee fight where I know the first time I get hit it'll be a crit. Although, I am getting much better at getting a backstab in fights

[You suck and have no life 203]

ktspaz: Pardon me for my arrogance, but I am already one of the better spies on the Lotusclan servers. Certainly better than the vast majority of people who play spy, and I'd put my own runs up agaisnt those of the guys from /a/, or Mojo's, or anyone from Lotus and so on, without shame.

Miyari: The revolver requires a the most aiming skill of any weapon in the game (more than the sniper rifle even, because when using the sniper rifle you are moving very slowly, while when using the revolver you are often moving rather quickly and dodging things). That said, I DO use the revolver, and have quite a few kills with it. But honestly, the only thing good about the revolver is its random damage (it has good highs), but on servers without random damage quite frankly it's pretty crappy.

You are slightly above average at best. I switched to spy just to see how my point gain was compared to you. I stayed 10 points above you the entire game and I don't even play spy.

The revolver does take aiming, but since you got 6 bullets, it doesn't matter if you miss a few. On a sniper rifle, if you miss a shot, you have to wait a long time before you get another shot.

[Mana 3,867]

It's just you. I almost never get crits against cloaked spies running away, unless I'm a medic. Then I get a ton of them all the time, but that's because I've been healing/killing a bunch of people in a short period of time.

Also, base crit chance on the melee weapons is 15%, not 20.

Medic has a high crit chance when using melee. I know this from my old melee only server with my custom ring/mountain map. Everyone who picked medic had an usually high score... though that could also mean that the medic has more rapid fire and the crits do considerably more damage than with other class melee weapons.

[+Henry Spencer 117]

Medic has a high crit chance when using melee. I know this from my old melee only server with my custom ring/mountain map. Everyone who picked medic had an usually high score... though that could also mean that the medic has more rapid fire and the crits do considerably more damage than with other class melee weapons.

I could see how the Medic has a boosted crit chance in melee... I mean, he's terrible for close range combat, and he's gonna get picked on a lot. It would make sense that anyone within range of melee without getting killed deserves a crit saw to the face. I don't think Valve would do that on purpose though... just seems OP. They probably base it more on how much you've healed, and that's why it seems higher.

In the case of your server, perhaps the medic gets a faster crit boost, being a fairly weak class without a real "killing" weapon ('nades, rockets, minigun, etc.)? Only Valve would know, and I doubt they'd tell us.